It's All Yours, Rob
Following a short debate on Facebook, I sent Steyn the following message:
Mark, a friend recently linked to this article suggesting that Azerbaijan is proof that Muslim-majority populations aren't always that bad. I know next to nothing about Azerbaijan, other than that it's a member of that venerable beacon of peace and charity, the OIC. And because this writer dismisses reasonable debate with the term "Islamophobia", I'm inclined to call shenanigans.
I'm ignorant on Azerbaijan, but I suspect you're not. What do you say? Is Azerbaijan a respectable nation with freedom and respect for non-Muslims? Is it, like Turkey, only respectable so long as an authoritarian government prevents Islam from directly influencing policy?
This was Mark's reply:
Ah, Azerbaijan – the Stan that thinks it’s a Jan. Central Asian Islam is certainly different, although (thanks to a lot of Saudi and Iranian money) not as different as it was twenty years ago. But, as you’re a Ricochet member, I think I’ll leave this one to Rob Long, who, as he told a somewhat befuddled Granite State crowd when we appeared together in New Hampshire a couple of years ago, has an Azerbaijani acupuncturist.
Alright, Rob. Your turn.
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May '10
Re: It's All Yours, Rob
To the main page. Stat.
Aug '10
Re: It's All Yours, Rob
When I was at school in the 70s, my maths teacher, a Jesuit priest, taught us some theorem or other, which he built around a character he called "The Hairy Man of Azerbaijan".So it was known as "The Hairy Man's Theorem." I can't remember the theorem but I've always retained a fondness for Azerbaijan.Not that I'd ever want to visit or anything.
May '10
Re: It's All Yours, Rob
My unit was supposed to stage our annual training in Azerbaijan in 2009 before the destination was switched ultimately to Honduras.
Jun '10
Re: It's All Yours, Rob
Azerbaijan is a bit tricky. It was latched on to Russia for a long time and became a bit more secular in governance over the last two centuries. Officially it is a secular state despite the fact that 99% of the population is Shia Muslim. At this point, it is not radicalized. It likes to sell its bounty of oil and its only beef is with Armenia who controls a chunk of land that Azerbaijan wants back. Since Armenians are primarily Christian, the lines can get blurred about whether it is Muslim extremism or just nationalism at play. I lean toward the latter.
There are several other pockets of Muslim groups scattered throughout the former Russian Empire and Soviet Union. The best examples are the Tatars in Central Russia. They have avoided radicalism thus far. I'd position Azerbaijan closer to the Tatars. They do have close ties both ethnically and religiously to Iran, so that's a potential slippery slope. Still, I'd prefer to consider them an ally rather than an enemy.
Meanwhile, the country is grossly corrupt and crime-ridden. That's the biggest problem with them at the moment... at least for now.
Jun '10
Re: It's All Yours, Rob
And they recognize Israel, so that has to say something compared to a large number of their religious brethren.
Edited on March 15, 2011 at 5:41amMay '10
Re: It's All Yours, Rob
Thanks, Dave.
As I said in that debate on Facebook, it wouldn't speak well of Islam if Muslim-majority nations must be secular to be considerate of human rights and of non-Muslims. When Jews and Christians are good citizens or neighbors, it is because they are practicing the tenets of their faith... not because they are setting aside their values for peace.
It really is remarkable how many nations host our soldiers.
How was Honduras?
May '10
Re: It's All Yours, Rob
Aaron Miller: Thanks, Dave.
As I said in that debate on Facebook, it wouldn't speak well of Islam if Muslim-majority nations must be secular to be considerate of human rights and of non-Muslims. When Jews and Christians are good citizens or neighbors, it is because they are practicing the tenets of their faith... not because they are setting aside their values for peace.
It really is remarkable how many nations host our soldiers.
How was Honduras?
Poor and boring. We did construction for the Honduran military and left the day before the "coup".
Dec '10
Re: It's All Yours, Rob
Aaron Miller: Thanks, Dave.
As I said in that debate on Facebook, it wouldn't speak well of Islam if Muslim-majority nations must be secular to be considerate of human rights and of non-Muslims. When Jews and Christians are good citizens or neighbors, it is because they are practicing the tenets of their faith... not because they are setting aside their values for peace.
Hmmm. If non Arab Muslims (Azerbaijanis, Tatars, Turks, Indonesians, etc.) are less prone to radicalization than Arab Muslims does that mean there is an ethnic/cultural connection to radicalization more so than a religious one? I guess Afghanistan/Pakistan pretty much scuttle the theory, but they could simply be the exception to the generalization.
Edited on March 15, 2011 at 4:27pmOct '10
Re: It's All Yours, Rob
Jeez, Steyn and Long together in New Hampshire...likely to happen again? Do tell, please!
May '10
Re: It's All Yours, Rob
Prawn, as I recall from articles Steyn linked to on his blog, radicals in Indonesia have been carving out sharia ghettos without government interference. Sharia-style Islam seems to be gaining ground everywhere, perhaps only because people are too fearful to stand up to them.
Dec '10
Re: It's All Yours, Rob
I think religion trumps ethnicity, nationality, etc., but I could be wrong. I don't have the time to back that up with any facts at the moment, but will delve deeper later on. Anyone with any evidence to prove/disprove my claim, please step up.
Dec '10
Re: It's All Yours, Rob
I suppose a case could be made that the Arabs are just more advanced in their radicalization agenda than other ethnicities or nationalities. They do have a significant amount of oil wealth with which to finance the endeavor.
Nov '10
Re: It's All Yours, Rob
Do not scroll down on this page unless you want to be horrified, but here are some stories: Islamic jihad in Indonesia.
Dec '10
Re: It's All Yours, Rob
Well, there goes Indonesia. In America Alone, Mark shows that there are no countries where Muslims make up more than 20% of the population, and there is also religious or political freedom.
Are there any examples today? Would Azerbaijan qualify as a "free" society?
http://www.heritage.org/index/Ranking
Oman is the highest ranked Majority Muslim--as far as I know--in terms of economic freedom. Azerbaijan is 92.
Edited on March 15, 2011 at 7:09pmDec '10
Re: It's All Yours, Rob
Frightening. I have seen many in a state of religious rapture before, and none of the brutes in those photos display even the slightest hint of it. Their religion, it seems, has simply become the excuse/justification/rationalization to act on the inherent failings of human nature that all religions purport to cleanse us of. Perhaps Islam in a non-radicalized form can be placed alongside other world religions in the quest to right the wrongs internal to a person, but radicalized Islam just cannot. It feeds the beast within rather than subduing and eliminating it.
May '10
Re: It's All Yours, Rob
I'm uncertain about Islam, but am not a multiculturalist. I believe that cultures and religions, like individual persons, can be overwhelmed by corruption and evil. I believe that some cultures and religions are objectively better than others.
Whether or not Islam itself is the problem, I reject the notion that Saudi money can explain the acceptance of barbarism in so many different cultures. I also reject the idea that Christianity went through a similar phase and so we should allow millions of people to be butchered and oppressed until Islam matures. And I reject suggestions that religious motivations should be excluded from politics (secularism).
In short, what I see is a clash of civilizations driven by ideas. I'm trying to discover the roots of those ideas.
Dec '10
Re: It's All Yours, Rob
Well said. I argue with people in my classes all the time about the ideas/philosophies that undergird their assertions. Most don't even realize that their assertions are not self evident and are dependent on underlying ideas.
Dec '10
Re: It's All Yours, Rob
Since the Mohammedan faith was, first, revealed by the angel Gabriel in a cave near Mecca, and then, forged into perfection for all time in Medina, it’s natural that common human nature would cause those tribes living closest nearby to possess the strongest vicarious association with its prophet, and the guide for currently over one billion persons living in the Ummah.
In accordance with the paradigm of defending one’s family before one’s neighbor, one’s neighbor before stranger, stranger before foreigner, etc., a sense of fealty to that original group may be misplaced, but in the context of a culture of tribal traditions, it is understandable.
The populations living mountains or even oceans away who are willing to order their life in submission to an extrawestern/premodern desert survival guide still have some latitude in ignoring certain of its rituals.
The spreading infrastructure of Madrasahs in the Ummah and an array of mother of all mosques here in the West—fueled by Saudi petro-dollars—and the igniting of conflagrations to bring an end to the West—inspired by Iranian nihilism—means we cannot ignore how they live and what they intend for us—our annihilation.
Edited on March 15, 2011 at 6:24pmRe: It's All Yours, Rob
Steyn loves the story of my friend, the Azerbaijani acupuncturist. So to be clear: he's a friend, not my acupuncturist. I don't have an acupuncturist.
The Azerbaijani government is thuggish and nasty. It imprisons and beats up its citizens (and its journalists) and it has lots of other nasty habits, too.
The best place to get info on Azerbaijan is here, at Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty.
On the other hand, it's a thuggish secular government, ruling over a secular Muslim country, routinely at odds with the Muslim fundamentalists within who get a lot of help from its troublesome neighbor, Iran.
So, it's a set of bad choices, it seems to me.
Dec '10
Re: It's All Yours, Rob
Rob Long:
So, it's a set of bad choices, it seems to me. · Mar 15 at 10:50am
Am I naive to prefer the secular bad choice, to the Islamic bad choice?