Islamic Law from a Circuit Court Judge?
“THIS CAUSE came before the court, on Defendant's February 23, 2011 ore tenus motion for a written Order memorializing the oral interlocutory order announced by the Court during the evidentiary hearing that began on January 10, 2011.” This is the sort of sentence that makes me weep for the future of Western civilization. It also reminds me of the headaches I used to get in Algebra class. Who is ore, and why is he tenus? Wasn't he vaccinated with all the other kids? And as long as we're memorializing an oral interlocutory, might we also memorialize the Constitution as a basis for American law.
From the same pen that wrought the painfully indecipherable (to non-lawyers) coagulated mess above, in the very same court order, we read a plain directive that, “This case will proceed under Ecclesiastical Islamic Law.” And, oh yes, in his final thunderbolt from Mt. Olympus, Circuit Judge Richard A. Nielson announces that, “The remainder of the hearing will be to determine whether Islamic dispute resolution procedures have been followed in this matter.”
To this layman, this is positively jaw-dropping. A Florida district court judge has ordered that a case proceed according to Islamic Law? My respect for our court system has been hanging by a thread for some time, but this is surprising even to me. Perhaps the fine legal minds on Ricochet can decode the particulars, but it does seem to underscore the validity of those who are concerned with a creeping Islamification on our own shores.
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Aug '10
Re: Islamic Law from a Circuit Court Judge?
This can't be good....
Jun '10
Re: Islamic Law from a Circuit Court Judge?
I saw that too. The only place I saw it headlined was at Pewsitter.com There are cases where Native American Tribes have their own courts, but it's because they were here first. And even so, the tribal courts aren't guided by some unchangeable divine law. They may have some sentencing variations, but they operate pretty much like regular courts. I have no idea why American courts would ever let Allah determine what the law is on American soil. They don't let any other divinity offer advice on the law.
Oct '10
Re: Islamic Law from a Circuit Court Judge?
Maybe it was a contract dispute?
May '10
Re: Islamic Law from a Circuit Court Judge?
Excuse me while I smash something.
Re: Islamic Law from a Circuit Court Judge?
You mean Nina Totenberg doesn't count?
Feb '11
Re: Islamic Law from a Circuit Court Judge?
If the parties agreed by contract that any dispute would be handled by arbitration, then one decides to violate that agreement and takes the matter to couirt, doesn't the court have to send them away to solve it the way they contracted?
Oct '10
Re: Islamic Law from a Circuit Court Judge?
Well, well...it seems the people of Oklahoma were right after all. Remember when the usual liberal elites (and their RINO hangers-on) were denouncing Oklahomans as stupid hillbillies over that? Well who's stupid now?
Re: Islamic Law from a Circuit Court Judge?
That's plausible. And, as Joseph Eagar also mentions, it could be a contract dispute. I'm just not sure, which is why I'd like to get some lawyerly opinions on the matter. Still, it's jarring somehow to read those statements, particularly when they are about the only ones in the order that seem to be written in English.
May '10
Re: Islamic Law from a Circuit Court Judge?
I'm more surprised that a court is facilitating an Islamic legal code than that such a code is being practiced in the United States. Let's not forget that it's common in many countries for Muslims to form ghettos in which they enforce sharia laws without government intervention. Steyn cites examples on his site frequently.
As I said back when we discussed the Oklahoma law, the United States already allows separate legal systems on indian reservations. It's not so far fetched that our government might allow Islamic "reservations" as well. Politicians don't have to create such zones formally. All they have to do is ignore them and encourage law enforcement officials to do the same (as happens with illegal immigration).
Jul '10
Re: Islamic Law from a Circuit Court Judge?
The snark on Twitter was that this is what happens when you let a Bush, Jeb in this case, nominate judges.
What's Allen West doing this time next year, again?
May '10
Re: Islamic Law from a Circuit Court Judge?
Where's the Left to cry "separation of church and state" when you need them?
Mar '11
Re: Islamic Law from a Circuit Court Judge?
Actually, Dave, I see this as a good thing. You see, under Catholic doctrine and church law usury is illegal and a sin. Now I don't have to pay the interest on my student loans! I mean, it's not like a judge would apply the law differently due to religion, right?
I'm not so sure that this is from a contract dispute resolution agreement. The second bulletpoint says that if something is in dispute between two Muslims they need to follow certain procedures, including submitting the problem to the rest of the Muslim community to solve. The last part, though, is what worries me. "If that is not done, or does not result in a resolution of the dispute, the dispute is to be present to an Islamic judge for determination." If the court decides that Islamic law needs to be followed here, then the precedent is set for any dispute between two Muslims to be ultimately decided by a religious judge. At what point does the ACTUAL court system take over?
*Note: As I am a law student, this is not to be taken as a legal opinion in any way.*
Oct '10
Re: Islamic Law from a Circuit Court Judge?
If these brothers wish to resolve their case outside the civil court, why is the case in a civil court in the first place? Contractual arrangements involving Sharia law should be resolved outside the civil court. Should one of the parties not agree to the judgement of the Sharia court, then and only then should the civil court intercede. At which point, the applicable civil law should be decide the case without deference to Sharia law.
To do otherwise requires the civil court to sanction Islamic law.
Jul '10
Re: Islamic Law from a Circuit Court Judge?
I can understand the concern many of you have with the decision, but all criticisms here seem to contain a glaring hole; we don't know any facts about the case besides the fact that a judge has mandated that Islamic law be followed.
What are the details of the dispute? What, if any, agreements were come to by the two parties? Why was the court asked to judge on the dispute in the first place? Why was Islamic law brought up at all? I am no lawyer, but my point is that there could be a very benign reason behind this, but without deeper examination, it is premature and irresponsible to criticize the decision.
We should at least make an attempt to answer these questions before firing off rounds at the decision.
Edited on Mar 20, 2011 at 1:23amJun '10
Re: Islamic Law from a Circuit Court Judge?
I am no lawyer either, Humza. And , like you, I have no idea of the facts of this case. Yet, for nearly a year, on this site and elsewhere...everywhere the opportunity arises, I have maintained that the USA citizens need to protect this country from the balkanization and usurpation of sharia by preemptively and definitively outlawing its use in any form , under any circumstances in this country. Sharia is antithetical to the Constitution of the United States and to the values of western civilization.
May '10
Re: Islamic Law from a Circuit Court Judge?
I'd wager the parties agreed to dispute resolution using Islamic law, as suggested above. My first year contracts professor told us that in the diamond exchanges in New York, which are heavily populated by Orthodox Jewish dealers, transactions are often governed by Jewish law. A decision under these rules may be enforceable in civil court (just as a decision under the rules of the American Arbitration Association may be) if the parties have so agreed.
Feb '11
Re: Islamic Law from a Circuit Court Judge?
As are any number of other cases within the Orthodox Jewish community. Such matters have the legal standing of arbitration. The key is, of course, that both parties agree in advance.
It would be a pity if problems with the Moslems spoiled it for others.
Edited on Mar 20, 2011 at 5:45amDec '10
Re: Islamic Law from a Circuit Court Judge?
For what it may be worth, here is some background and discussion of the facts (opinions?) of the case. That was the best summary I could find, so far. Interesting.
Jun '10
Re: Islamic Law from a Circuit Court Judge?
"I'd wager the parties agreed to dispute resolution using Islamic law, as suggested above. My first year contracts professor told us that in the diamond exchanges in New York, which are heavily populated by Orthodox Jewish dealers, transactions are often governed by Jewish law. A decision under these rules may be enforceable in civil court (just as a decision under the rules of the American Arbitration Association may be) if the parties have so agreed."
Perhaps the two parties agreed between each other to work under sharia law. So why are they in a U.S. courtroom? Once they decided to go this route, any agreements about accepting sharia laws should be null and void. The same holds true with the Jews even though I would guess that their Talmudic laws are not antithetical to western civilization.
Would a US court hold an agreement to accept sharia or Talmudic law as valid, even if it went against US or State law? I find that difficult to believe.
Edited on Mar 20, 2011 at 6:36amJul '10
Re: Islamic Law from a Circuit Court Judge?
I don't want to overstate the facts of this case because I just don't know what they are but I worry we are moving unconsciously towards a "separate but equal" understanding of the law again. Private contract is private contract but we suffered the consequences of trying to maintain two different systems based on race. Are we going to repeat that mistake substituting a religious separation?