Is the Real War on Women Being Waged by Women?
I'm not speaking of Hillary Rosen's idiotic comment, addressed a few posts below, but of this story from The Economist regarding some troublesome data from hiring patterns. Essentially: women don’t stick together.
For men, the results were as expected. Hunks were more likely to be called for an interview if they included a photo. Ugly men were better off not including one. However, for women this was reversed. Attractive females were less likely to be offered an interview if they included a mugshot. When applying directly to a company (rather than through an agency) an attractive woman would need to send out 11 CVs on average before getting an interview; an equally qualified plain one just seven.
At first, Mr Ruffle considered what he calls the “dumb-blonde hypothesis”—that people assume beautiful women to be stupid. However, the photos had also been rated on how intelligent people thought each subject looked; there was no correlation between perceived intellect and pulchritude. So the cause of the discrimination must lie elsewhere. Human resources departments tend to be staffed mostly by women. Indeed, in the Israeli study, 93% of those tasked with selecting whom to invite for an interview were female. The researchers’ unavoidable—and unpalatable—conclusion is that old-fashioned jealousy led the women to discriminate against pretty candidates.
How significant of a problem is this? Have you experienced it personally? What, if anything, can be done about it as a cultural matter?
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Re: Is the Real War on Women Being Waged by Women?
Like Samantha Brick, my beauty is an obstacle for many.
Just kidding. But the economist in me has an extremely difficult time believing that the regression analysis controlled for all other factors in the known universe before settling on "old-fashioned jealousy."
The only way that conclusion was "unavoidable" was if all other factors were ruled out. All other possible contributing factors. That didn't happen. A good study can only provide limited results, as much as we might hope for a conclusion we're gunning for.
Jun '10
Re: Is the Real War on Women Being Waged by Women?
I'm definitely all for reversing this particular trend...
Re: Is the Real War on Women Being Waged by Women?
My own personal (highly scientific, well-constructed, controlled) experiments have resulted in the finding that 93 percent of people who believe they've failed at something because "They were jealous of me"--no matter what was believed to prompt the jealousy--are, in fact, complete losers.
May '10
Re: Is the Real War on Women Being Waged by Women?
Rush solved this problem years ago when he identified Uglo-Americans as a group that needed special governmental help. The full details of his plan are here. But the essence of the idea will still work:
"Ban the ugly from the streets in the daytime so as to speed up the economic recovery. And people said, "Well, how do you do that?" Well, the first thing we try is make it voluntary, the ugly know who they are, and if that doesn't work, then we gotta take more drastic steps."
It's obvious this will solve the problem. If the ugly people will just have the decency to stay home, then the beautiful people would be able to get those jobs.
Edited on April 12, 2012 at 7:40amNov '11
Re: Is the Real War on Women Being Waged by Women?
Isn't the more interesting question not if jealousies about physical attractiveness affect the way women treat each other, but why?
My speculation is that it's all quite natural. Beauty is power. Flowers know it. Bees know it. Birds know it. Women know it, too.
I use the word "know" to speak about the kind of knowledge which compels action without the necessity of being self-reflectively affirmed--the kind of knowledge that you don't have to think about.
Women know physical attractiveness is important. Surprise . . . suprise . . . suprise.
And they often act on that knowledge. Shocking!
Still, it's probably a good thing that we must pretend otherwise. I suppose that's the sort of healthy pretense that allows us to call ourselves civilized, . . . and actually to be so.
Therefore, what I've written just now is idle speculation, probably not true at all, especially since the satistics are shaky. Until presented a study with proper satistics, I must continue to refuse to believe all those things we've all known about men and women since around about the age of six.
Edited on April 12, 2012 at 8:14amApr '12
Re: Is the Real War on Women Being Waged by Women?
It's certainly possible to turn off an interviewer by making them feel foolish. I suspect beauty could have a similar effect. Sadly, it's much more difficult to hide than intellect.
I tend to agree with Ms. Hemingway of course, but it has been my experience that beauty can be a mixed bag for women.
Edited on April 12, 2012 at 9:51amJun '10
Re: Is the Real War on Women Being Waged by Women?
It's also easier to get the unattractive to work late. It's not like they have other places to go, other things to do. :)
May '11
Re: Is the Real War on Women Being Waged by Women?
My wife would probably not like it if I hired an assistant that was very pretty. I would never cheat on my wife no matter how pretty an assistant, and a pretty face greeting my clients would probably be an asset to my business, but logic doesn't get me anywhere on that topic.
Aug '11
Re: Is the Real War on Women Being Waged by Women?
So what were the controls and the one variable in this social experiment? For example, sending the same resume to the same employer, one with a photo and one without. You would need to make sure that names are different, different formatting, sent to arrive on different days, but essentially the same resume. Without experimental control, perhaps the attractive women who sent photos also sent insipid resumes.
Sep '11
Re: Is the Real War on Women Being Waged by Women?
I wonder how beautiful the actual hires are? Maybe there is a compensating tendency for male managers to hire the better looking female candidates from the pool presented to them, and naturally to keep potential male competitors out of the corporate tribe. Man, if we all didn't know better, you almost think that this male/female thing had something to do with mating and reproduction.
Dec '10
Re: Is the Real War on Women Being Waged by Women?
Personally I dislike working in female majority environments. The amount of politicking, back biting, and power plays is aggravating. Also from my time in the dating scene I can also say that many woman not only actively work for or against other woman based on their looks, they are quite open about doing so.
Sep '10
Re: Is the Real War on Women Being Waged by Women?
It makes perfect sense to me. Ironic that women were once hired for their looks and now looks are a handicap because women control (and they do) HR departments. HR departments in general are where the incompetents and petty go to occupy corporations.
All these people must believe in the religion of PC and have a bloated sense of their own importance in order to function. I believe they are reponsible for 10% (at least) loss in productivity in the USA.
Edited on April 12, 2012 at 2:19pmSep '11
Re: Is the Real War on Women Being Waged by Women?
I've been a software developer for many years--one of my former clients is a major perfume manufacturer associated with a famous male designer. Every single one of their sales reps was a working model. (Even one of their programmers was a working model.) They pressured their retail accounts to hire glamorous women to work "their" counters in department stores--I think they could even veto particularly dowdy sales clerks. They were absolutely convinced that women responded to beauty--their whole pitch was, in essence, "spend a zillion dollars on our tiny vials of high-explosive hazmat, and we'll give you this really cool umbrella. And you'll get to pretend that you look like me...." (Quoting words to that effect from the deep dish product manager, over lunch.)
Research is research--everybody has a theory. When you see a highly-successful company put major money behind an idea, you can safely conclude that they believe the premise.
(Explanation: the "high-explosive hazmat" referred to is a well-known brand of perfume. Which will, in fact, explode.)
Sep '11
Re: Is the Real War on Women Being Waged by Women?
To address Ben's point, though--no. The real "war on women" isn't being waged by women--the competition among women for beauty, power, fame, and fortune has been going on since before Cleopatra made a point of dropping her handkerchief in front of Marc Antony.
In many respects the war on women was waged, and won, in the 1960s and 1970s--under the guise of "liberation." Forty years later we've come to see what liberation looks like: unwed motherhood, dramatically higher rates of poverty, and a social culture that not only no longer condemns an adulterous cheat--we support his candidacy for president and embrace the Trophy Wife.
The rear-guard action that we're seeing today is making sure that women who dare question their "liberated" status are kept in line. Step out of that line, and the Matriarchy will land on your pretty little head, demean you, insult you, mock you, and dismiss you.
Hell doth have a fury greater than a woman scorned--it is a woman in power who is confronted by somebody she regards as "uppity."
Sep '10
Re: Is the Real War on Women Being Waged by Women?
Perhaps it boils down to this (gross generalization generally true about strangers): men view other men as apart from them (impersonally, always on the lookout for a leader) but women as somehow a part of them (personally, always on the lookout for a potential mate). Same with women, who view all men as a part of them (personally: a potential mate) but all women as apart from them (impersonally: a potential rival). To whatever extent this is true, however, it may be changing, as, there's research to suggest that males of various species are becoming physiologically more like females (contraception apparently being a major factor).
Edited on April 12, 2012 at 3:05pmDec '10
Re: Is the Real War on Women Being Waged by Women?
Maybe I'm still scarred from high school, but I've always found more attractive people to work less hard for the things they receive. If I was hiring and productivity was my goal, then a super hot person, male or female, would definitely be out of the question. But, I work in government, so super hot never enters the equation.
Feb '11
Re: Is the Real War on Women Being Waged by Women?
Not clear that women in HR provide a good sample of women in general.
Although I think that Franco's statement..."HR departments in general are where the incompetents and petty go to occupy corporations"...is far from universally true: there are indeed HR people who are intelligent, helpful, and useful. Considerable difference from company to company on this.
Nov '11
Re: Is the Real War on Women Being Waged by Women?
Quoted from page 472 of that classic but little-read text, Famous Last Words . . . in the chapter titled, Things My Silly Wife Just Doesn't Understand, under the section heading , How I Am Unaffected by Ordinary Human Temptations.
Edited on April 12, 2012 at 3:17pmSep '10
Re: Is the Real War on Women Being Waged by Women?
david foster: Not clear that women in HR provide a good sample of women in general.
Although I think that Franco's statement..."HR departments in general are where the incompetents and petty go to occupy corporations"...is far from universally true: there are indeed HR people who are intelligent, helpful, and useful. Considerable difference from company to company on this. · 3 minutes ago
Sorry, but I have had it with this kind of statement: Since there are exceptions, you are wrong. Must we, in our 200 word limit here, continually assert that there are exceptions to generalized statements? I think that's a given. You are right, it's not universally true, okay? Satisfied? This doesn't negate my statement, since I never claimed it to be "universally true". It is insulting and at the same time makes you sound unable to make distinctions, as though I am making some absolute blanket statement that requires immediate push-back. Really?
Of course women in HR department aren't representative of women in general. I'm saying that men and women in HR are disproportionately petty.
Sep '10
Re: Is the Real War on Women Being Waged by Women?
Anyone here watch Celebrity Apprentice? I know it's faux-reality game, yet there are real insights to be gained on human nature. Let me say this to start: Donald Trump is a corporate idiot of huge proportions. I say "corporate" idiot to mean that he is divorced from reality and had too many yes men and women around him to the extent that he has lost touch.
The first 5 tasks there were two teams, men vs. women. There is a clear difference on how the two teams interacted with each other and where the individuals chose to focus. Men are generally better suited - perhaps chemically - to work in teams where agression is involved.
Women clearly have more jealosies and rivalries that go beyond the "game". This is because women are designed to attract while men are designed to go forth and win (something)
It is a testament to women that they are as able as they are to overcome this part of their nature to compete at all.