Is The Big Bang About To Go Bust?
Meet Jake Barnett. He’s 12. He’s in college. He has Asperger’s Syndrome. He’s very, very smart. He’s a mathematical genius. Here’s just a sample of his genius...when he was 3-years old (!!) as reported by the Indianapolis Star:
As a 3-year-old, he loved looking at a book about stars, over and over again.
So off they went on a tour of the Holcomb Observatory and Planetarium at Butler University.
Kristine Barnett will never forget the day.
"We were in the crowd, just sitting, listening to this guy ask the crowd if anyone knew why the moons going around Mars were potato-shaped and not round," she recalls. "Jacob raised his hand and said, 'Excuse me, but what are the sizes of the moons around Mars?' "The lecturer answered, and "Jacob looked at him and said the gravity of the planet...is so large that (the moon's) gravity would not be able to pull it into a round shape."
Silence.
"That entire building ...everyone was just looking at him, like, 'Who is this 3-year-old?'"
At 12-years old now, there’s something about the Big Bang that disturbs him. From a mathematical and time standpoint it doesn’t seem to allow for enough time to create carbon and carbon is important because it’s what the Earth and us and billions upon billions of other planets are made of. So, he’s been working on the problem…and he may end up disproving the Big Bang theory at least from a mathematical perspective. If he’s successful, then a lot of other physicists, mathematicians and cosmologists are going to have to contend with his theory…and everyone of us numbskulls who were just starting to warm up to the Big Bang as that point of reference for the creation of the universe.
Thanks a lot, Jake! (Keep up the good work, buddy!)
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Jun '10
Re: Is The Big Bang About To Go Bust?
(4)
"The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man.
KC Mulville: You asserted that the Church treats the Genesis story as literally true, but that's false. The distinction is important because if the Church committed itself to every detail of the narrative, then the discoveries of science would contradict the Church. But as it is, there is no conflict, because we in the Church don't have any problem with what science tells us about the beginnings of humanity.
For other sections of Genesis, the Church no longer instructs that the Creation of Earth, plants, animals, etc. occurred as is conveyed by Biblical account. But for this specific part of Genesis – The Fall, the Church instructs that is literally true and that it happened as an historical event and that Original Sin was committed by our “first parents”. And there is a very good reason that the Catechism teaches this in such specific language.
Edited on March 28, 2011 at 5:36amJun '10
Re: Is The Big Bang About To Go Bust?
(5) It is not my intent to paint the Catholic Church as fundamentalist. The characterization that I am doing so I believe is over the top. As far as I am concerned, Catholicism is one of the most broadminded religions, if not the most broadminded religion on the planet and often invites, and indeed sponsors, intellectual inquiry and speculation.
I haven't said the Church doesn't acknowledge ToE as a valid field of study. But at the same time the Church, in the story of Adam and Eve, has very specific instructions in its Catechism that the story is to be regarded as non-fiction. This very specific "non-fiction" section of Genesis appears to run counter to the findings of ToE, anthropology and paleontology. In this tangent on Adam and Eve specifically, I have based my argument not on some loose personal interpretation of a meaning for any bizarre anti-Catholic theories that I am somehow fermenting but by referencing the actual text from the Catechism itself.
Edited on March 28, 2011 at 5:35amJun '10
Re: Is The Big Bang About To Go Bust?
(6) It is one thing for the Church to acknowledge and even embrace ToE but then the Church needs to reconcile how it does this when it still treats the story of Adam and Eve as non-fiction. If there is a clarification from the Church on this I would be most anxious to read it but as yet I haven’t stumbled across it. I have a feeling that I'm not the only one inside or outside the Church that has raised this specific issue.
Jun '10
Re: Is The Big Bang About To Go Bust?
Matthew Osborn
Brian Watt
· Mar 27 at 12:09pm
It is individuals, cooperating with one another, which constitutes the history of man. The gatekeepers, whether religious or scientific, offer at best convenient fictions. Yes, science has corrected some of the many concepts established by hubristic religious gatekeepers; however, it is now the gatekeepers of science that engage in the same hubristic overreach. · Mar 27 at 6:54pm
Edited on Mar 27 at 06:55 pm
To the degree that scientists behave unscientifically by suppressing or ignoring data or making pronouncements on the reasons why the universe or humans exist I would agree. But I think this is probably a small number of scientists who behave so. Please keep in mind that many of the vocal proponents of anthropogenic global warming aren't even scientists but environmental activists and politicians. I think the vast majority of scientists would prefer to go quietly about their business and just understand the physical mechanics and processes at work in the natural world.
Mar '11
Re: Is The Big Bang About To Go Bust?
I suppose when one's view of the scientific community is shaped entirely by the MSM, it is somewhat understandable that some of these misconceptions would arise.
Jan '11
Re: Is The Big Bang About To Go Bust?
Be warned. My reply comes in one part, but a good part it is.
A report from the International Theological Commission, entitled Communion and Stewardship: Human Persons Created in the Image of God.
Jun '10
Re: Is The Big Bang About To Go Bust?
KC Mulville
Be warned. My reply comes in one part, but a good part it is.
A report from the International Theological Commission, entitled Communion and Stewardship: Human Persons Created in the Image of God. · Mar 27 at 10:12pm
All right, I've read it. Where does it contradict or negate the teaching in the Catholic Catechism?
Jan '11
Re: Is The Big Bang About To Go Bust?
It doesn't. It explains it. Especially p.70.
We've had this discussion before, on another thread. The difficulty here is that you want to find a piece of text, claim that it exposes the church's answer to your specific question, and then stake your credibility on the fact that it's a church document.
Let's cut to the chase. "But for this specific part of Genesis – The Fall, the Church instructs that is literally true and that it happened as an historical event and that Original Sin was committed by our “first parents”.
Question -- what, in this story, do you think is "literally" true? That there was a man named Adam, and his wife heard snakes speaking, and that, by gosh, there really was a Tree of Knowledge? Do you think their sin was ... eating fruit?
Or is it more rational to believe that the story was about God making man, by some event, into a creature of a different kind than the other animals?
Oct '10
Re: Is The Big Bang About To Go Bust?
Nickolas
Sorry, but "science" is not a grand conspiracy and insidious endeavor out to destroy religion and take over the world. · Mar 27 at 12:47pm
Science, as everything else, has its uses and abuses. While the carbonphobes, suffering from the Irritable Climate Syndrome are indeed a conspiracy, I don’t blame science per se, but those who would abuse science to advance political goals and those science practitioners that encourage such abuse.
My comment (200 words or less) attempted to encompass such basic concepts as the gravitational force and its affects upon time, neither of which has a solid causational or even existential foundation but is relied upon as a basis of so much of modern science.
While supremely useful, as is the concept of God, there is no foundational explanation as to why one should be preferred over another.
Oct '10
Re: Is The Big Bang About To Go Bust?
Brian Watt
To the degree that scientists behave unscientifically by suppressing or ignoring data or making pronouncements on the reasons why the universe or humans exist I would agree. But I think this is probably a small number of scientists who behave so. Please keep in mind that many of the vocal proponents of anthropogenic global warming aren't even scientists but environmental activists and politicians. I think the vast majority of scientists would prefer to go quietly about their business and just understand the physical mechanics and processes at work in the natural world. · Mar 27 at 8:54pm
Your thoughts and mine are not in opposition in this regard. In another post in reply to Nikolas, I tried to point out the fragility of science due to its reliance upon such concepts as the gravitional force and its relationship to time. I'm trying to express the notion that while science is utilitarian (my original post) it relies upon assumed facts such as gravity, time and their relationship. Modern science posits that its utilitarianism is useful in so many ways, we need not question its corner issues with such trivial concepts such as God.
Jun '10
Re: Is The Big Bang About To Go Bust?
The revelation that Church theology affirms is the committing of Original Sin by Adam, the first man, who disobeyed God's commandment, which results in Adam and Eve's banishment from paradise. The Church regards this as an actual event. It does so because it is the foundation of the faith and without the stain of Original Sin mankind cannot be redeemed either through his own acceptance of Christ, the Redeemer; the avoidance of sin; or through contrition - the forgiveness of sins through the holy sacrament of Confession; or by God's grace directly apart from man's own acts. If Original Sin is taken figuratively or as an event that did not actually happen, then it calls into question the veracity of divine revelation not the veracity of a scientific explanation of what may or may not have occurred.
Whether there was a specific Tree of Knowledge, a snake, an apple, etc. the Catechism doesn't concern itself with but it is the accepted educational reference used by clergy and blessed by the Holy See so to refer to it as something other than an accepted Church document, specifically for instruction, would be incorrect.
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Jun '10
Re: Is The Big Bang About To Go Bust?
Page 70 of the Commission’s report that you cite upholds the validity of divine intervention apart from any scientific explanation of natural events in that despite inconsistencies or gaps of knowledge in Scripture. In other words, God’s divine intervention could have occurred at any given time and the onus is on theologians and the Church to discern where those moments of divine intervention might have occurred. One must ask oneself why the theologians are saying this and why they felt it was important to convene the commission in the first place.
Take special note of what Page 70 says: “Catholic theology affirms that that the emergence of the first members of the human species (whether as individuals or in populations) represents an event that is not susceptible of a purely natural explanation and which can appropriately be attributed to divine intervention.”
The passage emphasized above essentially states that science alone cannot determine the exact moment or event when the first members of the human species emerged. But here again is where there is bound to be some discussion and possible friction between Church theologians and anthropologists to make a determination of what it means to be human. –more-
Jun '10
Re: Is The Big Bang About To Go Bust?
I think it’s probably not a stretch to believe that the Church realizes it will need to monitor and perhaps reconcile new findings by anthropologists who may wish to push the boundaries of “humanness” to earlier periods of time and call populations of certain hominids “human” that were either not previously known or if known weren’t previously considered human. These first humans will look substantially different from modern homo sapiens. Hence the meaning of the subtitle of the Commission’s report: “Human Persons Created in the Image of God”.
From Page 70 of the report: “While science can study these causal chains, it falls to theology to locate this account of the special creation of the human soul within the overarching plan of the triune God to share the communion of trinitarian life with human persons who are created out of nothing in the image and likeness of God, and who, in his name and according to his plan, exercise a creative stewardship and sovereignty over the physical universe.”
Needless to say the phrase “…created out of nothing…” is also problematic from an evolutionary perspective. –more-
Edited on March 28, 2011 at 12:34pmJun '10
Re: Is The Big Bang About To Go Bust?
The Commission report essentially instructs Catholic theologians to stay engaged with new findings and developments in science and presumably anthropology since it references first human or first human populations; precisely to bring clarity to what it means that humans were made in the image of God, something that I touched on in Claire’s quite lengthy discussion on God and what people believe. If scientists find an early hominid population and make a determination that this population should be considered human and the individuals in this population tend to look more ape-like than homo sapiens then wouldn’t you agree that from a theological perspective this could pose some challenges? The Church will have the option at this point to either reject the scientific consensus, accept it, or rely on its own definition of what it means to be human.
Edited on March 28, 2011 at 12:28pmJan '11
Re: Is The Big Bang About To Go Bust?
" then wouldn’t you agree that from a theological perspective this could pose some challenges?"
No I wouldn't agree. There's nothing about the Church's position that requires the event of "ensoulment" to be at any given stage or time. There is no "onus" on the Church to discern where the moment may have occurred. That's what the whole discussion is about ... the Church doesn't really care when it happened. It cares that it happened, not when. And there's nothing in the theory of evolution that would disrupt that.
Now, you can deny that human beings are any different from the rest of creation. Fine. That's another thread, and it would be a religion thread, not a science one.
But that's not what "literal truth" means. When people claim that the Bible is literally true, that means they believe that there was an Adam and a tree with dangerous fruit. The Church doesn't believe that.
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Jan '11
Re: Is The Big Bang About To Go Bust?
The definition of humanity, from a scientific point, is purely arbitrary. It’s akin to whether Pluto is a planet. No matter what we “declare” here on earth, that space-rock keeps orbiting along, blissfully unaware of its promotion or demotion. In the same way, whether science designates one group or another as “human,” the physical anthropological definition doesn’t affect the Church’s belief that God made man different.
This whole religion tangent got started because you asserted that the theory of evolution challenges the religious notion of creation. And if we did believe in the literal truth of Genesis, you’d be correct. But when it comes to evolution, the Catholic Church never pulled a Galileo. I’m sure you could find a quote or two where a priest or bishop sneered at the theory, but no more than the scientific community at the time. The Church never condemned it, nor did we ever embrace it. We were no more threatened by evolution than we were by chemistry.
What’s frustrating here is the assumption that the Church is threatened by science. It simply isn’t so.
Dec '10
Re: Is The Big Bang About To Go Bust?
Matthew Osborn
My comment... attempted to encompass such basic concepts as the gravitational force and its affects upon time, neither of which has a solid causational or even existential foundation but is relied upon as a basis of so much of modern science.
I'm sure you are trying to make some philosophical/theology point, however, science is not philosphy or theology.
It is practical and pragmatic. It is about discovering laws and theories that explain physical phenomena and data. It addresses data gathered to date. And it is predictive of future phenomena and data.
Newton's gravitational theories and and Einstein's theories about gravity and time are well supported by controlled experimental results and observed natural phenomena and evidence. They are used in practice every day. For example, GPS and associated devices would not work without applying Einstein's theories.
Theologians, philosophers, and some prominent scientists may engage in intellectual exercises, mental gymnastics, and speculations about metaphysics, the origin of the universe, and whether or not the supernatural exists or does not and its nature, but this is all outside the realm of science. Science does not deal in supernatural causes and explanations. That position is foundational.
Jun '10
Re: Is The Big Bang About To Go Bust?
Your assumption that I am saying that the Church is threatened by science is false. For Church theologians it is a matter of on-going practice as is shown in the Galileo case to clarify matters of theology and Church doctrine from time to time as it relates to new developments in science. I make no contention or insinuation that the Church does this out of fear but simply that it is an ongoing practice that's been happening for essentially two thousand years of Church history when ecclesiastes and laymen have presented new information about how the natural world works. Where there are seeming inconsistencies with Scripture and findings of science, the Church realizes that these inconsistencies must be addressed and so it addresses them as noted in the example of the theological commission that was convened on "Human Persons in the Image of God".
It's good that you are a defender of the Faith but you should take care in branding me as someone who is attacking it.
Jul '10
Re: Is The Big Bang About To Go Bust?
Brian Watt
"There's that word again, 'heavy'. Why are things so heavy in the future? Is there a problem with the earth's gravitational pull?" - Back to the Future · Mar 27 at 2:45pm
Dang, Brian! Regardless of the changing tack of a thread, you are ready and able. And wrapped in physics, as well. Well done.
Jun '10
Re: Is The Big Bang About To Go Bust?
Sisyphus
Brian Watt
"There's that word again, 'heavy'. Why are things so heavy in the future? Is there a problem with the earth's gravitational pull?" - Back to the Future · Mar 27 at 2:45pm
Dang, Brian! Regardless of the changing tack of a thread, you are ready and able. And wrapped in physics, as well. Well done. · Apr 7 at 2:38pm
Wow! Just when I thought it was safe to blast free from the event horizon of the gaping maw of the black hole that is this discussion, it pulls me back in. ...and, uh thanks!