Is Repealing DADT like Desegregation?
Though there were about a hundred consequential stories breaking this morning, NPR decided to devote at least two of its a.m. segments today to the issue of repealing Don't Ask Don't Tell. In one of them, NPR host Neal Conan interviewed Tammy Schultz, the director of National Security and Joint Warfare at the U.S. Marine Corps War College. Schultz is an openly gay woman who thinks that the Marines should accept that DADT will be repealed.
At one point during the interview, Schultz compared repealing DADT to desegregation. According to Schultz, 60% of Marines "would be ok" with repealing DADT. Here's how she came to that number: according to her figures, 40% of Marines "expressed concerns" with repealing DADT, therefore, "if you do the math, that means 60 percent of the Marines say it won't be an issue." That's not exactly sound statistical reasoning.
Anyhow, from the "fact" that 60% of Marines "would be ok" with repealing DADT, she goes on to compare repealing DADT to desegregation. "Those numbers [the 60% figure] are much higher than if you look at history, for instance, for desegregation."
CONAN: Yet that 40 percent issue - that 40 percent, those are the - that's the percentage who expressed concerns, even a majority of Marines said this would be okay.
Dr. SCHULTZ: You know, that's exactly right, Neal. And honestly, that's one of the things that I have found surprising was the level of support across all armed services and also the Marine Corps because obviously, you know, if you do the math, that means 60 percent of the Marines say it won't be an issue. And I think that is very positive. Those numbers are much higher than if you look at history, for instance, for desegregation.
And as I've said in other writings, I don't think desegregation and allowing gays to serve openly are analogous. You know, I can hide my sexual orientation. An African-American certainly can't hide who they are. So I would, you know, offer no analogy in that way, but the arguments used are very similar. And I think the opposition is very similar as well. And we're seeing much more support for reversing Don't Ask, Don't Tell than we ever saw for desegregation when Truman affected those policies.
I don't think that the dis-analogies Schultz cites are the ones that we should be concerned with. Desegregation was about ending racism. Not ending segregation would have been tantamount to racism. Not repealing DADT is not tantamount to discrimination against gay men and women, however.
But the analogy between racism and discrimination is precisely the analogy Schultz wants to draw.
Confusing the issue like this helps neither side of the argument. As far as I'm concerned, let's repeal DADT (I mean, Alexander the Great was gay...and he was great!)--but I think we need to have a reasoned discussion about it, and one not clouded by misinformation and misapplied facts.
- Comment (11)
- · Quote
- · UnfollowFollow (2)
Comments :
May '10
Re: Is Repealing DADT like Desegregation?
Of course most Marines would be ok with repealing DADT. The issue isn't serving with an openly gay service member. There are plenty of gays in the military, and most of the people they serve with know that they are gay. The issue is that if you repeal DADT, it will be an open door for advocacy groups to lobby for dependent status for gay partners of gay service members. They can go get married in a state that has legalized gay marriage, then get DoD to recognize it. Besides being very costly to the taxpayer (dependents receive many benefits including healthcare), it is a back-door approach to legalizing gay marriage. The military was desegregated long before the Civil Rights Act was passed, so gay marriage advocates are using the same strategy. If you recognize gay marriage in the military, federal employees have a case as well. This will bypass the states by forcing a decision about gay marriage at the national level.
Re: Is Repealing DADT like Desegregation?
Point of inquiry my dear Emily: Was desegregation really about "ending racism?" Racism is, as best I can tell, completely legal to this day. Acting on racism (particularly by government) is what is sometimes made illegal, as with Truman's executive order in 1948 desegregating the military.
I'm going to take the opposite view on your ultimate conclusion as well (and even that of Dr. Shultz).
Segregation on color and segregation on homosexuality are exactly, perfectly, symmetrical. The reasoning: Skin color is biological - there is no choice involved. Sexual desire is biological - there is no choice involved.
Skin color has no bearing on intellectual abilities, exceptionalism, etc. Neither does homosexuality. Folks are folks no matter what color they are born and no matter what sexual desire they are born with.
Prejudging anyone for the way they were born is not something I intend to answer for when I reach St. Peter at the gate.
My personal conservative motto, written many times before and repeated again: Leave your neighbor alone (certainly not an original thought - see Gadsden Flag)..
May '10
Re: Is Repealing DADT like Desegregation?
To complete the analogy... Because if Jackie Robinson had kept his blackness in the closet he would have been in the Majors sooner?
Aug '10
Re: Is Repealing DADT like Desegregation?
This is a question for the Presidential scholars out there and Constitutional experts.
If the President is the Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces, why does he require the permission of Congress to establish military policy?
I understand that Congress could withdraw funding for the military if they disagree with the structure the military is taking under a given Executive, but I thought their powers over the military were limited to financial oversight and the ability to declare war.
Is this not the case?
Re: Is Repealing DADT like Desegregation?
Tommy De Seno:
Segregation on color and segregation on homosexuality are exactly, perfectly, symmetrical. The reasoning: Skin color is biological - there is no choice involved. Sexual desire is biological - there is no choice involved.
Skin color has no bearing on intellectual abilities, exceptionalism, etc. Neither does homosexuality. Folks are folks no matter what color they are born and no matter what sexual desire they are born with.
Tommy, I really loved reading your comment, and I think your perspective is interesting. I don't think homosexuality and skin color are totally symmetrical, but I agree with your approach to this: "Prejudging anyone for the way they were born is not something I intend to answer for when I reach St. Peter at the gate."
Also I think that the military was probably desegregated for both practical and altruistic reasons. What do you think?
May '10
Re: Is Repealing DADT like Desegregation?
It's not the president's personal Army. There is a defined structure and Congress has it's role. For example, general and admiral ranks are conferred by the President but only with the traditional advice and consent of the Senate.
Harry Truman is lauded for desegregating the Armed Forces in 1948 by Executive Order but the Army didn't act on it for almost three full years. Only after moving in black replacements into white units during the Korean War did the DOD make it official policy in 1951.
May '10
Re: Is Repealing DADT like Desegregation?
The beauty of DADT, even for those of us who couldn't care any less on a political (as opposed tom religious) basis what people choose to do in their private lives, is that it encourages everyone to keep overt sexuality out of the public view. I don't like to listen to leering ugly talk about women in the locker room any more than I want to be exposed to men acting out.
The military has fraternization rules, and promiscuity and adultery are against the codes of conduct. Enforce the sexual conduct rules against everyone.
But if I were a person of color and I heard racial animus being equated with the inability to marry another guy, with Loving v. Virginia as exhibit A in the argument, I would probably go start a riot outside Greg Gutfeld's proposed gay bar at Ground Zero.
Being denied the right to use a rest room in 1950's Mississippi, as opposed to being able to go anywhere normally as long as you don't flaunt effeminate gestures, simply do not equate.
May '10
Re: Is Repealing DADT like Desegregation?
This is a subject I don't have especially strong feelings about one way or the other, but I will say one thing. It's easy to tell whether a policy change is like desegregation: are liberals in favor of it?
Aug '10
Re: Is Repealing DADT like Desegregation?
Keeping homosexuals out of combat can be justified on the same ground as keeping women out of combat, and no one but a dried-up wretch of a feminazi would argue that women were historically kept out of combat out of an animus toward women. The point is that the possibility of erotic love can disrupt a group enterprise, with its endless opportunities for jealousy, rejection, betrayal, etc. The only way to eliminate the possibility of such complications is to restrict the enterprise to one sex, and enforce a taboo against homosexuality. That's why all cultures have evolved single-sex enterprises.
Also, non-sexual love plays an important role in combat, explaining the willingness of some men to lay down their lives for their comrades. And non-sexual love cannot form without some sort of taboo against the analagous sexual form. The incest taboo is what makes it possible for a father to show love for his daughter unselfconsciously, without it being misunderstood as a sexual advance. When people insist on framing the gays-in-the-military issue as a civil rights issue, they are blinding themselves to this whole other important dimension.
Nov '10
Re: Is Repealing DADT like Desegregation?
This is my position on pretty much all gay issues. I personally tend toward the more libertarian side of such things, but what really bugs me is the liberal/libertarians' adamant refusal to admit that there is even a debate to be had. The sneering condescension with which they thoughtlessly dismiss any objection to their agenda as borne of mindless, ignorant hatred is enough to make someone like me turn against them. And I'm sure I'm not the only right-leaning libertarian they've lost in that manner.
Nov '10
Re: Is Repealing DADT like Desegregation?
Tommy De Seno: Segregation on color and segregation on homosexuality are exactly, perfectly, symmetrical. The reasoning: Skin color is biological - there is no choice involved. Sexual desire is biological - there is no choice involved.
· Nov 29 at 10:05am
The difference is that a black man cannot stop "acting black." Indeed, contrary to pop culture, there is no such thing. A gay man may not be able to change his desires, but he can still choose to remain celibate or stay in the closet.
I would go so far as to argue that those who have been discharged under DADT should have been, because they decided coming out was a higher priority than serving their country. Putting service before self is a core value of all four branches of service.
That said, I think DADT should be repealed, but as Emily said, it needs to be debated civilly and at length.