Is Islam Compatible with Liberal Democracy?
Just under nine years ago, on 16 September, 2001, Richard H. Brodhead, then Dean of Yale College, convened a panel of Yale faculty members to speak on the significance of what had happened five days before. Not one of those on the panel took this as an occasion for denouncing those responsible for the massacres in New York and Washington. No one discussed the religious motivations of the perpetrators. No one laid stress on the need for retaliation. Some intimated that the United States was at fault. All urged those in attendance to consider the perspective of those who responded to 9/11 by dancing in the streets.
In Foreign Policy, in a revised version of his remarks, Strobe Talbott, who had been second in command in Bill Clinton’s State Department, urged that we take care to distinguish between “the assassins and those who mastermind and abet their operations” and “their constituencies – those millions who feel so victimized by the modern world that they want to be victims, too; those who see Osama bin Laden as a combination avenging angel and Robin Hood.” The “raw materials of what we are up against,” he contended, “are “disease, overcrowding, undernourishment, political repression, and alienation,” which “breed despair, anger, and hatred.” “Reactive, defensive warfare” he pooh-poohed. Instead he called for an international “war on poverty” – which he termed “a proactive prolonged offensive against the ugly, intractable realities that terrorists exploit and from which they derive popular support, foot soldiers, and political cover.”
What struck me when I first read about the Yale teach-in and, again later, when I perused Talbott’s remarks was the resolute refusal to take religion seriously. The same thought came to mind in 2008 when I read about the patronizing remarks that Barack Obama had delivered in a closed-door meeting with donors in San Francisco. “You go into these small towns in Pennsylvania,” he observed, “and, like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing’s replaced them. And it’s not surprising, then, they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren’t like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.”
Both Talbott and Obama took it for granted that religious faith is epiphenomenal and that man lives by bread alone. To this day, neither understands that serious political disputes always turn on moral and religious principles. Leave aside the fact that LBJ’s war on poverty was an egregious failure and that an international war on poverty would be a fool’s errand. Those who flew jetliners into the Twin Towers and the Pentagon knew nothing of disease, overcrowding, and undernourishment, and, in justifying themselves, they said not a word about any of these. They were middle-class; many were well-to-do. They had been educated in the West, and we owe them this much respect – to take seriously their claim that their motives were religious.
These men sacrificed their lives for a cause they believed in. If we are to give them their due, we must ask whether they were right about the dictates of Islam. This is a question we should consider, and it is a question that all Muslims sooner or later will have to confront.
I lived in Istanbul for two years, and, for seven years, I was married to a Turk; I puzzled for many years over the uneasy cohabitation of Islam and a secular state in Turkey, and I still wonder whether that cohabitation can survive. But I do not pretend to know the answer to the question I have posed here. I do, however, know this. Islam is and has always been a religion of Holy Law. It has never embraced the separation of church and state and full religious freedom; it has never been willing to tolerate apostasy – though it has been tolerant of those born Christians and Jews. To make itself compatible with liberal democracy, it would have to be willing to treat religious obligations as a private matter and give up the quest to legislate for the whole political community.
This is a tall order, and we may wonder whether genuinely devout Sunni and Shiite Muslims can ever be fully comfortable within a secular state. It is, however, good to remember that there was a time, not so long ago, when it was unclear whether Roman Catholics, not to mention Anglicans and Presbyterians, could make their peace with a thoroughgoing separation of church and state. No one – apart from the adherents of Islam – can decisively answer the question I have posed. What, in the end their answer will be . . . this is a matter of profound significance for them, and it is hardly less important for us. I can only say that – if one is inclined to interpret the religious commitments of others as a pathological response to job loss, disease, overcrowding, and undernourishment – one cannot begin to comprehend the world into which we were so violently thrust nine years ago today.
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Jun '10
Re: Is Islam Compatible with Liberal Democracy?
Yeah. The cure for terrorism is a healthy dose of social justice (aka income redistribution). Got it. Of course, Mr. Obama is the recipient of social justice in spades (so to speak), and it doesn't seem to have soothed his resentments in the least. I think we can safely scratch that idea off the list.
I think I can take Professor's Rahe's question one step further. Is Islam compatible with modernity? That's a question for Muslims to work out because they really don't have a choice. The world is not returning to the 7th century no matter what fundamentalist imams demand. We in the US can aid the transition to modernity by insisting that our liberal (enlightenment) values be recognized and honored as universal: women's emancipation, human rights, and rule by the consent of the governed. Such a policy would require a leader of courage and vision. I know, it's in short supply right now, but there's always 2012.
Aug '10
Re: Is Islam Compatible with Liberal Democracy?
No. They had their shot with Averroes, their Aristotelian philosopher who would have ushered in an Islamic Renaissance by demonstrating that faith and science were compatible. They rejected him, and went into decline.
We in the western world listened to Aquinas, and decided that faith and science could co-exist. Thus, we had the Renaissance and the Reformation.
Islam is not backward because it's poor; it's poor because it's chosen to be backward, and steeped in ossified Sharia Law.
What if modern Israel tried to live by Mosaic Law, and the Book of Leviticus?
Re: Is Islam Compatible with Liberal Democracy?
Paul? You lived in Istanbul for two years and for seven years were married to a Turk? I didn't know that. (I just did a Google search and discovered you were at Wadham, too; I hadn't known that, either.)
I'm more than academically curious about why you were there and why you left and what you make of recent events there. (I date "recent" from the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, I guess.) Americans who have lived there and who have deeply become involved with Turks, personally, and who are in a good position really to grasp all the dimensions of recent developments there are a bit thin on the ground here. Perhaps if you have some time over the weekend we could talk.
Jul '10
Re: Is Islam Compatible with Liberal Democracy?
Islam can be compatible with democracy, provided sharia is excluded from the equation. Sharia was developed in 7 -11 centuries, presumes autocratic rulers and submissive subjects, privileges Muslims over non-Muslims, men over women, and encourages violent jihad to expand Islam's borders. To eliminate sharia, Muslims must remove portions of the Koran, hadith, and sunna as was done in Turkey by Attaturk. Islam can be anything Muslims choose to make of it.
Re: Is Islam Compatible with Liberal Democracy?
Claire Berlinski: Paul? You lived in Istanbul for two years and for seven years were married to a Turk? I didn't know that. (I just did a Google search and discovered you were at Wadham, too; I hadn't known that, either.)
I'm more than academically curious about why you were there and why you left and what you make of recent events there. (I date "recent" from the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, I guess.) Americans who have lived there and who have deeply become involved with Turks, personally, and who are in a good position really to grasp all the dimensions of recent developments there are a bit thin on the ground here. Perhaps if you have some time over the weekend we could talk. · Sep 11 at 6:31am
I was a fellow, based in Istanbul, of the Institute of Current World Affairs (www,icwa.org) from 1984 to 1986, living in Cihangir; travelling about in Turkey, Greece, and Cyprus; and writing about what I saw. It was an exhilirating experience; I fell in love with the country and returned with some regularity between my marriage to a Stambouli and March, 2002.
May '10
Re: Is Islam Compatible with Liberal Democracy?
Paul, your unanswered question goes to the heart of whether our enterprises in Iraq and Afghanistan are fools' errands. Do your deep doubts about the compatibility of Islam with liberal democracy make you question Bush's (and now Obama's, apparently) entire project in the Middle East? Has the progress (and lack thereof) in Iraq caused you to be more, or less, optimistic?
Or, with no real alternative but to battle ideology with ideology, maybe the point is moot: we have no choice but to double-down and hope.
Re: Is Islam Compatible with Liberal Democracy?
From the git-go, I was fascinated with Ataturk (my first wife's grandfather had been the presiding judge at the Menamin trial and through her I met all sorts of Kemalists) and with the question of secularism. I regret not having visited in recent years. I remarried, took my second wife and our daughter to Istanbul a few months after 9/11 in an attempt to sort out what, if anything, had changed. Then we had more children (now 4). It is too expensive to take them to Turkey, and we would spend our entire time managing them. So we have not gone, and I am reluctant to abandon the family for the two weeks that it would take to make a proper visit. Some day, however. Claire: e-mail me at paul.rahe@hillsdale.edu; I will send you my telephone numbers; and we can talk at leisure.
Re: Is Islam Compatible with Liberal Democracy?
Scott Reusser: Paul, your unanswered question goes to the heart of whether our enterprises in Iraq and Afghanistan are fools' errands. Do your deep doubts about the compatibility of Islam with liberal democracy make you question Bush's (and now Obama's, apparently) entire project in the Middle East? Has the progress (and lack thereof) in Iraq caused you to be more, or less, optimistic?
Or, with no real alternative but to battle ideology with ideology, maybe the point is moot: we have no choice but to double-down and hope. · Sep 11 at 7:12am
Given what I know -- secondhand -- about Afghanistan, I have always been doubtful as to the likelihood of success in that theater. I discussed this on National Review Online back in 2001 and on Powerline in a piece entitled "Afghanistan: Butcher and Bolt." If you Google Rahe, Afghanistan, Butcher, it ought to come up. About Iraq, I was -- and am -- more hopeful. There is a large middle class; secularism once had a hold; and free elections are attractive. I thought -- and think --the experiment in Iraq worth the trouble. But keep in mind: I am, deep in my heart, a Kemalist.
Re: Is Islam Compatible with Liberal Democracy?
Scott Reusser: Paul, your unanswered question goes to the heart of whether our enterprises in Iraq and Afghanistan are fools' errands. Do your deep doubts about the compatibility of Islam with liberal democracy make you question Bush's (and now Obama's, apparently) entire project in the Middle East? Has the progress (and lack thereof) in Iraq caused you to be more, or less, optimistic?
Or, with no real alternative but to battle ideology with ideology, maybe the point is moot: we have no choice but to double-down and hope. · Sep 11 at 7:12am
By Kemalist, I mean an admirer of the secularist experiment initiated in Turkey by Mustafa Kemal, the man who came to be called Ataturk. My hope there was always that on the religious right something like the Christian Democratic Party of Italy would emerge, and that an accommodation would be worked out between Islam and the secular state. I do not, however, trust Erdogan. If he and his party win the constitutional referendum tomorrow, I suspect that we will in time see in Turkey a Sunni version of the Islamist experiment launched by Khomeini in Iran.
Jun '10
Re: Is Islam Compatible with Liberal Democracy?
Ragnarok, "To eliminate sharia, Muslims must remove portions of the Koran, hadith, and sunna as was done in Turkey by Attaturk. Islam can be anything Muslims choose to make of it."
Whatever Muslims must do to eliminate sharia matters not to me, as long as they do it. Islam can never be compatible with Western liberal civilization as long as it incompasses sharia. That is why I have stated time and time again on this sight that we must be proactive in our own country and pass laws that make practicing sharia in any form absolutely illegal. It should be regarded in the same category as a hate crime, while that category still exists (even though I believe this to be an unconstitutional category).
To Prof. Rahe, Bravo! In my first awareness of Islamism, I too believed that poverty and political emasculation were the cause. I believed in the Iraq war because, firstly, Saddam Hussein was an evil murderer, he had already broken the agreement for which we let him off the hook from a previous war, he was an obvious irritant and malicious troublemaker, and he had wmd's. Iraq may work out, I agree, not Afghanistan.
Edited on Sep 11, 2010 at 8:15amMay '10
Re: Is Islam Compatible with Liberal Democracy?
Paul A. Rahe, Guest Contributor
[...] If he [Erdogan] and his party win the constitutional referendum tomorrow, I suspect that we will in time see in Turkey a Sunni version of the Islamist experiment launched by Khomeini in Iran. · Sep 11 at 7:22am
Ouch. I'm putting my faith in Claire's suspicion that the AKP is in for a rebuke.
And thank you, sir, for your stint here at Ricochet. It's been a pleasure.
Edited on Sep 11, 2010 at 8:27amSep '10
Re: Is Islam Compatible with Liberal Democracy?
1. Even tho the Catholic Church has tried for its entire history to get around Christ's words; ie, "render unto Caesar---", the separation of church and state was sort of baked into Christianity. Is there any equivalent statement in the Koran?
2. I think the problem for the lefties is that to recognize Christ's words might somehow imply that there was something better about Christianity, which of course is anathema to them.
Sep '10
Re: Is Islam Compatible with Liberal Democracy?
Re: Is Islam Compatible with Liberal Democracy?
Scott Reusser Ouch. I'm putting my faith in Claire's suspicion that the AKP is in for a rebuke.
And thank you, sir, for your stint here at Ricochet. It's been a pleasure. · Sep 11 at 8:22am
Edited on Sep 11 at 08:27 am
Just for the record, I don't think it's in for a rebuke at the referendum. I think the referendum will probably pass--that's what the polls are showing. It's the general election that will probably result in the AKP being forced out or into a coalition. But a lot, really a lot, can happen between now and then.
Re: Is Islam Compatible with Liberal Democracy?
Patrick in Albuquerque: 1. Even tho the Catholic Church has tried for its entire history to get around Christ's words; ie, "render unto Caesar---", the separation of church and state was sort of baked into Christianity. Is there any equivalent statement in the Koran?
2. I think the problem for the lefties is that to recognize Christ's words might somehow imply that there was something better about Christianity, which of course is anathema to them. · Sep 11 at 9:51am
There is, alas, no such foothold within the Koran, and you are right that the "Give unto Caesar" passage provided just such a foothold in the Christian West. Muslims face a real challenge.
May '10
Re: Is Islam Compatible with Liberal Democracy?
Two points:
Ataturk's secularism was notoriously brutal. Does that undermine its use as an example? Does force remain necessary to protect that "experiment"?
While the history of Christianity and government does provide useful context, it does not follow that Muslim nations should be allowed to gradually improve without outside involvement. How long are we willing to wait for improvement? How many of their own citizens can we watch suffer and die under such governance as Muslim communities seek better leadership? If Claire is right that leadership, rather than Islam itself, is the cause of the strife we see, I'm not sure that awareness always matters practically.
Re: Is Islam Compatible with Liberal Democracy?
Aaron Miller: Two points:
Ataturk's secularism was notoriously brutal. Does that undermine its use as an example? Does force remain necessary to protect that "experiment"?
. . . it does not follow that Muslim nations should be allowed to gradually improve without outside involvement. How long are we willing to wait for improvement? How many of their own citizens can we watch suffer and die under such governance as Muslim communities seek better leadership? If Claire is right that leadership, rather than Islam itself, is the cause of the strife we see, I'm not sure that awareness always matters practically. · Sep 11 at 11:44am
Force may, alas, be necessary in the Turkish context. My hope is that Erdogan loses the referendum tomorrow and fails to consolidate his hold. If, on the other hand, he wins, then I worry. Ataturk's answer was to make the army the guarantor of Turkish modernity.
I support Bush's experiment in Iraq. I think that it may succeed. I am quite confident that, if the Iranian government were to collapse -- and it came close last year -- Islam as a political force would die a quick death.
Re: Is Islam Compatible with Liberal Democracy?
Die a quick death, that is, in Iran....
Jul '10
Re: Is Islam Compatible with Liberal Democracy?
It is, however, good to remember that there was a time, not so long ago, when it was unclear whether Roman Catholics, not to mention Anglicans and Presbyterians, could make their peace with a thoroughgoing separation of church and state.
Remember that they came to that position after among other things, the Spanish Inquisition (uniting Crown and Catholic into one nation), the 30 years War that destroyed at least one third of central Europe's population; and then there was the British Civil war, leading to a break between Monarchy and Constitutional Government. In Edinburgh's Grayfriars' Burial ground, there is a memorial to some 18,000 people who were executed for their religious belief, during the "Killing Times" when Charles II ruled England. The said memorial begins: "Halt Passenger, take heed what you do see,This tomb doth shew for what some men did die... From May 27 1661 that the most noble Marquis of Argyle was beheaded to the 17th of Febry 1688 that Mr. James Renwick suffered... noble Martyrs for Jesus Christ..."
Edited on Sep 11, 2010 at 1:54pmSep '10
Re: Is Islam Compatible with Liberal Democracy?
When I read the title of your post, Paul, I honestly thought you were asking a rhetorical question. Because the short answer is: absolutely not.
First, Islam views free speech, liberty & democracy as filthy abominations to be wiped from the face of the Earth. Since there is no place for Islam in Western Civilization, Western Civilization must go. Bring on the jihad.
Second, there is no mechanism whatsoever within the Islamic system for instituting change. To question the slightest tenet of Islam is to invite condemnation & death.
Third, every religion in the world makes a virtue of veracity – except Islam. They have a concept called "taqiyya" – euphemistically referred to as "precautionary dissimulation." Basically, it means Muslims can lie through their teeth to any non-Muslim. Not exactly conducive to a meaningful dialogue.
Finally, I urge you to go to VanityFair.com and read Maureen Dowd's "A Girl's Guide to Saudi Arabia." I'm not a Dowd fan, but that article is simply brilliant – and more than a little frightening. She got a good look at the true face of Islam – medieval, adolescent, intolerant, sociopathic and misogynistic.
Edited on Sep 11, 2010 at 4:45pm