Is A Secular Government Always Eventually Hostile to Religion?
Pseudodionysius ·
Aug 29, 2011 at 5:27pm
Inspired by Claire, swamped by deadlines and intrigued by Brian Watt's comments on the Modern Idolatry thread, I'd like to extend the argument. Leave aside the question of whether or not America's founders believed the Republic to be secular or not. Two questions arise:
- Is the US legislature, judiciary and executive -- taken in toto -- now "de facto" secularist?
- Corollary: See the title to this post.
Fascinating question, no?
Update Bonus Round Question: If yes, is it equally hostile to all religions or is it more hostile to some religions rather than others?
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Apr '11
Re: Is A Secular Government Always Eventually Hostile to Religion?
To the first question, I would answer "yes." When it is questioned whether a person of faith can set aside their beliefs in filling a position, we seem to be in a secularist mindset.
As for two, again, I'd say yes. I remember reading elsewhere that secularism has been behaving as referee in the marketplace of ideas lately, when at the same time it is competing within the marketplace. That considered, whether intentional or otherwise the secularist mindset will tend to favor its worldview over another.
Dec '10
Re: Is A Secular Government Always Eventually Hostile to Religion?
Are you intending to stress the definitional difference between secular and secularist? The former is more passive while the latter is active. I'm more the former way concerning tv channels like ESPN, I simply don't tune to it. However, with other channels like MTV, I remove them from the channel list on the guide. Our government was established as secular (or non-sectarian at least), but in practice has become more secularist, particularly via the judiciary.
May '10
Re: Is A Secular Government Always Eventually Hostile to Religion?
I cannot, obviously, speak for the dead. But if you could ask that question of the Founding Fathers I think they would tell you they meant for the government to be non-denominational and not totally secular. There is a difference.
Jun '10
Re: Is A Secular Government Always Eventually Hostile to Religion?
I suppose it depends on what you mean by hostile, doesn't it? If the federal government forbids polygamy, killing of apostates, killing of homosexuals or takes children away from parents who abuse them in the name of religion, or let's them die from an illness on religious grounds when they should be taken to a hospital - then would this be considered hostility toward religion?
So, whether there is a natural inclination toward hostility depends on whether there are religious practices deemed not healthy for the republic.
Is there an anti-religious fervor in the courts? I would agree that there is to some degree and that judges sometime overreach is snuffing out the practice of religion in public fora, unfortunately.
Jun '10
Re: Is A Secular Government Always Eventually Hostile to Religion?
And thanks, Psuedo for moving this discussion off of iWc's posting.
Edited on Aug 29, 2011 at 9:32amOct '10
Re: Is A Secular Government Always Eventually Hostile to Religion?
cbc posted last evening:
"It's not clear what some of the posts mean by a "secular" government. If Brian Watt is going back to the English Civil War -- which I think we must do on this point -- then secular means something like religiously neutral. But the argument for a religiously neutral government is itself an argument which grew out of the intensely religious convictions of men like Roger Williams and later John Locke. On that reading, the notion of secular government is itself a dissenting Protestant view."
"On this definition of secularism, we may have a secular government today. In 1776 we had what the Founders considered a religiously neutral national government -- although a fair number of the states still had established churches."
For me to put it bluntly, the current governing powers here in the West display an activist hostility against the Creator God.
Put lipstick on it, and it is still a pig.
Sep '10
Re: Is A Secular Government Always Eventually Hostile to Religion?
Brian Watt: And thanks, Psuedo for moving this discussion off of iWc's posting. · Aug 29 at 9:32am
Edited on Aug 29 at 09:32 am
I think the topic a worthy one and a fascinating way to debate these things in the virtual public square that Ricochet has created.
Jun '10
Re: Is A Secular Government Always Eventually Hostile to Religion?
Pseudodionysius:
As a pure legal question, I believe the answer is yes. The courts have interpreted the "establishment clause" in a way that has largely driven religion from public sphere. It has done so primarily by defining "establishment" activities (placing a creche on public property, showing a cross in a public school, having a chilling effect on academic discussions of the role religion plays in creating and maintaining a culture and civilization) so broadly that it has long since gone beyond the absurd.
That said, the religious affiliations and beliefs of politicians seeking public office is still a matter of great importance to most voters--I suspect they will remain so (and I view that as a good thing).
Edited on Aug 29, 2011 at 9:55amMar '11
Re: Is A Secular Government Always Eventually Hostile to Religion?
In a libertarian world, government is largely irrelevant to religion. But as government grows, it increasingly makes moral judgements about everything from marriage to childraising.
Any bureaucracy seeks to perpetuate itself and grow. I think that the answer to the question is "yes".
Let's posit a Law: Secular government hostility to religion grows in direct proportion to its own growth.
?
Jun '10
Re: Is A Secular Government Always Eventually Hostile to Religion?
iWc: In a libertarian world, government is largely irrelevant to religion. But as government grows, it increasingly makes moral judgements about everything from marriage to childraising.
Any bureaucracy seeks to perpetuate itself and grow. I think that the answer to the question is "yes".
Let's posit a Law: Secular government hostility to religion grows in direct proportion to its own growth.
?
· Aug 29 at 11:36am
As a general proposition I don't think that anyone would argue that the larger the government the more propensity for the infringement on freedoms and rights.
But specifically, should government allow polygamy? Should it allow killing of apostates or homosexuals? Should parents have the right to withhold lifesaving medical treatment for their children based on their religious beliefs? If government prohibited these practices of religion would you consider government hostile to religion?
May '10
Re: Is A Secular Government Always Eventually Hostile to Religion?
I do think secularism and religion are on a collision course. The American experiment grew out of and relies on Christian culture. It's not adequate to an amoral or a-religious society, much less one that is exposed to aggressive islamism.
Jun '10
Re: Is A Secular Government Always Eventually Hostile to Religion?
I think we're discussing a-religious governments, not societies, aren't we? Would Islam be less aggressive if Islamic states were secular? You have ten seconds.
Mar '11
Re: Is A Secular Government Always Eventually Hostile to Religion?
The best clue whether secular government is hostile to religion is the way government treats education. Our secular(ist) government insists on a monopoly of education tax dollars to support a public school system that proselytizes its secular(ist) belief system to the exclusion of competing systems. It views education as a function of government, rather than as the right and duty of parents. To the extent the government maintains this monopoly in favor of its preferred belief system, it acts with hostility toward religion.
Sep '10
Re: Is A Secular Government Always Eventually Hostile to Religion?
Check the Bonus Round Question update in the original post.
May '10
Re: Is A Secular Government Always Eventually Hostile to Religion?
Brian Watt
Would Islam be less aggressive if Islamic states were secular? You have ten seconds. ·
You may as well ask whether Islam would be less aggressive if it were Christianity.
Islam is what it is. It doesn't allow for the separation of church as state as Christianity does.
Edited on Aug 29, 2011 at 5:13pmMay '11
Re: Is A Secular Government Always Eventually Hostile to Religion?
Wouldn't a religious government be it Catholic, Jewish, Islamic, Protestant or Mormon government be more hostile to other religions than a secular government? Can only a secular government insure that we all have religious freedoms?
Mar '11
Re: Is A Secular Government Always Eventually Hostile to Religion?
But is not a secular government essentially religious, in that it promotes its belief system above those of its competitors?
Edited on Aug 29, 2011 at 2:58pmMar '11
Re: Is A Secular Government Always Eventually Hostile to Religion?
One would have to say yes. You are being somewhat inflammatory in your examples but using one as a basis let us posit a case. Say a new vaccine is developed and some government official decides to mandate that children should be inoculated. If a parent has a moral objection, perhaps it was manufactured using embryonic stem cells, and because of their faith rejects the treatment should the state be able to override a parent's decision on what's best for their child?
Or consider this, if the objection was based on a reading of the research and coming to the conclusion that the approval process for this vaccine was dangerously rushed does that change your opinion?
Given the current make up of our government the latter would be looked on far more favorably than the former. Yet in both cases it is the parent trying to do what is best for their child, do you see no hostility to religion in this?
May '11
Re: Is A Secular Government Always Eventually Hostile to Religion?
Basil Fawlty
But is not a secular government essentially religious, in that it promotes its belief system above those of its competitors? · Aug 29 at 2:57pm
Edited on Aug 29 at 02:58 pm
I would define a secular government as not endorsing a religion. Our secular government is certainly influenced or many would say based on Judeo\Christian values. I agree with you on how secular values are impeding on the religious values of our society.
Mar '11
Re: Is A Secular Government Always Eventually Hostile to Religion?
It all depends on whether you consider secularism equivalent to a religion. I do. A secular government endorses the religion of secularism when it demands you pay for its secular schools..
thelonious
Basil Fawlty
But is not a secular government essentially religious, in that it promotes its belief system above those of its competitors? · Aug 29 at 2:57pm
Edited on Aug 29 at 02:58 pm
I would define a secular government as not endorsing a religion. Our secular government is certainly influenced or many would say based on Judeo\Christian values. I agree with you on how secular values are impeding on the religious values of our society. · Aug 29 at 3:21pm