Immigration and the National Debt
An often overlooked benefit of increased immigration is the positive impact more immigration would have on the national debt. Here is why more immigration would be net benefit to the nation's fiscal situation:
1) The budgetary problems at the national level are driven primarily by entitlement programs for those 65 and older. Immigrants tend to be younger - which means that they tend to be net payers into the entitlement system.
2) Other than entitlements, much of our federal budget is devoted to expenditures that are "non-rival". A good is considered non-rival when the cost of providing the good to an additional person is zero. For example, national defense and interest on the national debt are non-rival. The cost of providing provide national defense does not increase when an additional person moves to the US. So when it comes to these non-rival goods, the more people the better.
For those who are concerned that immigrants would flood into the US to get on the welfare rolls, there is a solution to that. I advocate something like a "blue card", which would permit immigrants to come to the US but make them ineligible to receive benefits.
I acknowledge that the situation at the state level is a different story. States provide a lot of services that are direct payments. But states can also adopt something like a "blue card" system or require immigrants to pay an additional tax for use of the public school systems, health care systems, etc.
And finally, let's assume that we open up the borders and the immigrants that come in turn out to be a bunch of low-life welfare seekers that become a huge burden on state governments. Even in that scenario, there is another possible benefit - more immigration might encourage if not force states to reduce or end generous government programs, kind of a Cloward and Piven in reverse.
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Sep '10
Re: Immigration and the National Debt
Before I take on the many flaws in your argument to which you might not even respond, please tell me (us) why you look to immigration reform as a solution to the debt crisis. Even if your argument is true and has no other unintended consequences the reduction of our national debt your proposal brings is a tiny fraction over a very long time period. So what gives? You are an open borders advocate for a reason and it isn't solving the debt crisis.
Sep '10
Re: Immigration and the National Debt
Your whole argument rests on the assumption that our government works. It doesn't, haven't you noticed? All these plans assume that the laws will be enforced. "Oh, if we change the law to this or that, we will enforce it" But they never do. It will be on to the next thing, the next "right" for these new visitors.
If they can't or won't enforce existing laws, how does changing these laws help?
The other assumption is that a one-time law change will be the end of it. It's not, my naive friend. This will be the next platform to gain more and more. You really think millions of people with a "blue card" who are refused welfare will be a good thing for our country?
Do you really think importing millions more third-world peasants (nice people that they are) and having them work here and contribute to our country and pay taxes but are not entitled to the same services citizens are, and on top of that deny them the vote will be good for the USA?
Oct '10
Re: Immigration and the National Debt
I am in favor of immigration primarily because it is consistent with economic freedom and free trade.
If I own a business and want to hire someone from another country to work in that business, as long as that person is not a criminal, a national security threat, or carrying disease, I should be able to do so without worrying about some Federal official showing up at my place of business with firearms.
Oct '10
Re: Immigration and the National Debt
Franco:
The other assumption is that a one-time law change will be the end of it. It's not, my naive friend. This will be the next platform to gain more and more. You really think millions of people with a "blue card" who are refused welfare will be a good thing for our country?
Perhaps. I agree that that is a potential problem. But I think the benefits outweigh the risks.
I guess I don't look at it from the perspective of the rights of immigrants. When you restrict immigration, you are taking away my rights to engage in peaceful, voluntary transactions with whom I see fit.
Sep '10
Re: Immigration and the National Debt
Todd
I am in favor of immigration primarily because it is consistent with economic freedom and free trade.
If I own a business and want to hire someone from another country to work in that business, as long as that person is not a criminal, a national security threat, or carrying disease, I should be able to do so without worrying about some Federal official showing up at my place of business with firearms. ·
There are special visas you can get for them. The program has been around. No one is restriting your ability to hire. You have to show only that there is no American in your locality that can fill your need.
Oct '10
Re: Immigration and the National Debt
Franco
There are special visas you can get for them. The program has been around. No one is restriting your ability to hire. You have to show only that there is no American in your locality that can fill your need. · Jun 30 at 9:35am
That sounds like a restriction to me.
Oct '10
Re: Immigration and the National Debt
As John Derbyshire says, any time you argue immigration with a libertarian, you end up in the same weed-covered vacant lot:
Conservative: The problem with open borders is the welfare state.
Libertarian: Well, we shouldn't have a welfare state / Well immigrants shouldn't have access to welfare.
Conservative: Right. Good luck with that.
Sep '10
Re: Immigration and the National Debt
The problem that is overlooked when these schemes are proposed is that you are creating a non-citizen underclass. These workers will live here and work here and pay taxes, yet not be entitled to services the US government provides citizens. They can't get welfare or medicaid or any number of things from the government that you and I potentially can. This is taxation without representation. These people, sooner or later, will demand the right to vote on that basis alone. This then would undermine our Constitution and create another crisis.
The fact that the people here, and those still coming, are actually illegal, whether the law is actually enforced or not, keeps the argument that they should be able to vote invalid. As soon as they are allowed to be here legally and are working and paying taxes, they should then have the right to vote. Otherwise it is tantamount to slave labor.
Any amnesty program, regardless of safeguards like they can't vote, they can't go on welfare blah,blah, will ultimately fall to the inevitable legal challenges.
Sep '10
Re: Immigration and the National Debt
Todd
Franco
There are special visas you can get for them. The program has been around. No one is restriting your ability to hire. You have to show only that there is no American in your locality that can fill your need. · Jun 30 at 9:35am
That sounds like a restriction to me. · Jun 30 at 9:39am
Boy, you are pretty radical. We all have a LOT of restrictions running any business. That is one of them and it's quite reasonable.
Are you just wanting a cheap labor market because you are in one of those industries that thrives off cheap non-American labor?
Jul '10
Re: Immigration and the National Debt
J. D. Fitzpatrick: As John Derbyshire says, any time you argue immigration with a libertarian, you end up in the same weed-covered vacant lot:
Conservative: The problem with open borders is the welfare state.
Libertarian: Well, we shouldn't have a welfare state / Well immigrants shouldn't have access to welfare.
Conservative: Right. Good luck with that. · Jun 30 at 9:45am
Whoa, whoa...libertarians are not, by any means, unified in advocating open borders. I, for instance, advocate that immigration should be limited to people who can demonstrate that they have the education, skills and means to make a contribution to the commonweal - and who speak English.
Oct '10
Re: Immigration and the National Debt
Slave labor? No one is owning anybody here. It is completely voluntary.
Jul '10
Re: Immigration and the National Debt
All I'll say about this post is that letting a flood of uneducated, low-skilled immigrants into the country is a recipe for national suicide.
That might have worked back in the days when we needed hewers of wood and haulers of stone, but those days are long gone.
Edited on Jun 30, 2011 at 9:56amOct '10
Re: Immigration and the National Debt
J. D. Fitzpatrick: As John Derbyshire says, any time you argue immigration with a libertarian, you end up in the same weed-covered vacant lot:
Conservative: The problem with open borders is the welfare state.
Libertarian: Well, we shouldn't have a welfare state / Well immigrants shouldn't have access to welfare.
Conservative: Right. Good luck with that. · Jun 30 at 9:45am
I am making a different point here. That immigrants are actually a net benefit when it comes to the national debt.
Sep '10
Re: Immigration and the National Debt
And what of the advantage to Mexican citizens who can just walk across a border vs. citizens from other countries who would like to come here?
If we open up our borders, I don't care what your business is, running a slaughterhouse, landscaping, you name it, in ten years you you will be living in a third world country, you will likely be out of business through failure or through a government takeover, and possibly dead.
Oct '10
Re: Immigration and the National Debt
Who are these people who are going to make that decision? A panel of 15 experts?
If employers find it necessary or useful to hire immigrants, I assume they wouldn't do so unless the employee has demonstrated the "education, skills and means" to contribute to their enterprises.
Edited on Jun 30, 2011 at 10:00amOct '10
Re: Immigration and the National Debt
Actually, not at all. But I am a consumer.
Oct '10
Re: Immigration and the National Debt
Kenneth: All I'll say about this post is that letting a flood of uneducated, low-skilled immigrants into the country is a recipe for national suicide.
That might have worked back in the days when we needed hewers of wood and haulers of stone, but those days are long gone. · Jun 30 at 9:56am
Edited on Jun 30 at 09:56 am
If low skilled workers are no longer needed, then there will be no flood of low-skilled immigrants.
Sep '10
Re: Immigration and the National Debt
You must work (can't go on any dole) You must pay taxes (almost at the level where all you are left with is subsistence level at current tax rates and cost of living) and you can't vote, otherwise you must leave (deportation again - they aren't doing it now) That's pretty close to slavery.
But that aside, It's completely unfair. Oh, they will jump at that deal now. Wait a few years and the next argument, which will be a valid one, comes in, and there is no turning back.
Oct '10
Re: Immigration and the National Debt
Kenneth
J. D. Fitzpatrick: As John Derbyshire says, any time you argue immigration with a libertarian, you end up in the same weed-covered vacant lot:
Conservative: The problem with open borders is the welfare state.
Libertarian: Well, we shouldn't have a welfare state / Well immigrants shouldn't have access to welfare.
Conservative: Right. Good luck with that. · Jun 30 at 9:45am
Whoa, whoa...libertarians are not, by any means, unified in advocating open borders. I, for instance, advocate that immigration should be limited to people who can demonstrate that they have the education, skills and means to make a contribution to the commonweal - and who speak English. · Jun 30 at 9:53am
I know. Should have said "open borders."
Oct '10
Re: Immigration and the National Debt
Todd
J. D. Fitzpatrick: As John Derbyshire says, any time you argue immigration with a libertarian, you end up in the same weed-covered vacant lot:
Conservative: The problem with open borders is the welfare state.
Libertarian: Well, we shouldn't have a welfare state / Well immigrants shouldn't have access to welfare.
Conservative: Right. Good luck with that. · Jun 30 at 9:45am
I am making a different point here. That immigrants are actually a net benefit when it comes to the national debt. · Jun 30 at 9:56am
We have to have a nation to have a national debt.