Illegal Immigration Will Take Care of Itself
Last week, approximately 50 Ricochet Members gathered in San Francisco to hear a conversation between Chuck Schwab and AEI's Arthur Brooks on the moral case for the free enterprise system. Following the conversation was a Q&A session during which one Member asked Arthur Brooks for his thoughts concerning the illegal immigration crisis at the United States' southern border. Brooks rejected the premise that the U.S. is currently experiencing an illegal immigration crisis, but to the extent that Americans still fret about the problem, he believes that it's likely to work itself out.
As we've seen to be the case for a few years now, a languishing U.S. economy has caused Mexican immigration to slow significantly. Mexicans now have a better shot at finding jobs in Mexico, whose unemployment rate has been in the high 4 to 5 percent range, than they do in the U.S. But looking beyond what we all hope will be a temporary recession, a return to high rates of Mexican immigration is unlikely. Why? Because with plummeting fertility rates, Mexico's demographics are on their way to looking more and more like Europe's. Take a look at this chart:
With fertility rates barely above replacement rate, but still falling sharply (2012's fertility rate, not included in this chart, is 2.27) Brooks predicts that by the time today's children reach voting age, illegal immigration will seem to them a complete non-issue.
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Nov '11
Re: Illegal Immigration Will Take Care of Itself
Furius Camillus:
. . . ask why the southern border states have such terrible rankings with regards to crime . . .
If immigration has disproportionately contributed to crime, it is primarily because our present scheme gives rise to a black market that breeds criminality, e.g., human trafficking networks.
A rational approach would divert those illegal human waves into manageable legal channels, increasing by multiples the number legally allowed to enter this country, moving the whole process into the daylight so that:
[1] immigrants who come here will both receive the benefits and bear the burdens of our laws and our culture, so they can enter the socio-economic mainstream; and
[2] we can then focus our attention more narrowly and efficiently on the extremely serious risk presented by the remaining few who would still attempt to enter the country illegally. As things are now, terrorists and smugglers can easily disguise themselves among the human waves sneaking across our borders. By diverting the vast majority of illegals into a legal process, we could scrutinize them before they enter, and more importantly, we could properly assume that those not taking the available legal route are coming here to do harm--and shoot them on sight!
Edited on June 12, 2012 at 6:31pmNov '11
Re: Illegal Immigration Will Take Care of Itself
Furius Camillus
. . . Please discuss the regulatory state you would impose to manage the alien labor market. . . .
In light of your refusal to acknowledge even the existence of a black market in immigrant labor, I must decline your invitation to follow your ball further into the rhetorical rough for a weed-pulling contest, so I have elided most of your comments and presumptions.
As to creating a scheme for policing immigrant labor, we already have one now. Although I am sure it could be improved, the first improvement would be to increase the possible number of immigrant laborers actually being policed by it (by increasing immigration quotas), because at present about half of immigrants and their families are operating outside the present scheme.
No matter the number of persons subject to it, a rational system of enforceable rules--one that is consitent with free market principles and encourages immigrants to operate within the law--will always work better than an irrational system of unenforceable rules, i.e., the present system, that has inarguably resulted generations and millions of immigrant workers living in a pernicious underground sub-society and working in a crime-breeding black market economy.
Nov '11
Re: Illegal Immigration Will Take Care of Itself
An aside:
How depressing! I'm Native American and the things that happen on reservations make me feel so ashamed. I've never lived on a reservation , and though I'd probably be considered a race traitor for saying it, in the long run Indians would be better off both as peoples and as individuals if the reservations were broken up and sold for scrap.
Whatever the purpose might once have been, reservations are hideous racist anachronisms. The United States is not a nation of tribes, neither Indian nor any other.
Nov '11
Re: Illegal Immigration Will Take Care of Itself
That's my experience, too. We should welcome as many of the hard workers who want to come here and work, and weed out the ones coming for welfare.
As is happenning now, when work cannot be found, the hard-working ones will stop coming and many of them will return home. Although not perfectly self-regulating, the movement of immigrant labor will be to a great extent self-regulating, especially if we enact sensible laws limiting welfare for immigrants. Market forces do not work perfectly immediately, but we have been fortunate to have a pool of immigrant labor that could quickly be put to work "as needed" whenever our relatively higher skilled native workers can be more productively employed in work requiring those higher skills. And when, as now, a downturn puts native workers out of work, rather than remaining unemployed, the native worker should be able to out-compete the immigrants for the lower skill jobs, at which point immigrants will be motivated to return home.
Feb '11
Re: Illegal Immigration Will Take Care of Itself
Instugator
I think your "Wrong" was incorrect. Would you care to revise your statement? ·
My point is that the US government was able to set policy and make law as needed to enforce the border and when desired control immigration.
No one believed or pretended to believe that borders and immigration policy were to just too hard and thus the borders had to be abandoned and immigration simply could not be stopped.
Nov '11
Re: Illegal Immigration Will Take Care of Itself
Furius Camillus
. . . Freeing individuals with proficiency to labor in their respective fields increases wealth and economic activity.
This doesn't seem too complex and nobody here is arguing against this economic truth. . . .
If you weren't denying that economic truth, then why did you inject the snarky remark about "jobs we citizens refuse as a waste of precious time and energy"?
I understood that you intended the word "precious"as sarcasm directed precisely against the notion (which I take as true) that the time of a higher skilled native worker is indeed more "precious"
than that of an unskilled immigrant. In an economy near full employement, all else being equal, it is better for an unskilled immigrant to do those "jobs Americans won't do" than it is to waste the productive capacity of a more skilled native worker who should be busy with something more productive. Quite a few people here do argue against that proposition.
Okay, you have lured me into the the weeds.
Aug '10
Re: Illegal Immigration Will Take Care of Itself
Xennady
No one believed or pretended to believe that borders and immigration policy were to just too hard and thus the borders had to be abandoned and immigration simply could not be stopped.
Actually, it really didn't matter to them. We did not have regulated border crossings until the 20th century.
From the Wikipedia Article (emphasis added)
Wow, 1965... care to reconsider?
Feb '11
Re: Illegal Immigration Will Take Care of Itself
Instugator
Wow, 1965... care to reconsider?
Wow, care to read what I wrote?
Again: My point is that the US government was able to set policy and make law as needed to enforce the border and when desired control immigration.
It wasn't believed to be outside the bounds of public policy or too difficult to attempt.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Wetback
From that link:
Burgeoning numbers of Mexican migrants prompted President Dwight D. Eisenhower to appoint General Joseph Swing as INS Commissioner. According to Attorney General Herbert Brownell, Jr., Eisenhower had a sense of urgency about illegal immigration upon taking office. In a letter to Senator J. William Fulbright, Eisenhower quoted a report in The New York Times that said, "The rise in illegal border-crossing by Mexican 'wetbacks' to a current rate of more than 1,000,000 cases a year has been accompanied by a curious relaxation in ethical standards extending all the way from the farmer-exploiters of this contraband labor to the highest levels of the Federal Government."[2]
Care to reconsider?
Aug '10
Re: Illegal Immigration Will Take Care of Itself
Xennady
Wrong. The US controlled its borders and set immigration policy successfully for most of our history.
I just demonstrated that the US ignored immigration for 99 years (1776 - 1875) then had a single policy of excluding asian undesirables for almost 50 years - until the quota system of the 1920's. A quota system that ignored immigrants from the Western Hemisphere until the 1960s. That is nearly 200 years and constitutes most of our immigration policy.
Yet you cannot back off from the sentiment that the US government controlled both immigration and the borders "successfully for most of our history."
It is a simple point, but in reality (one based in facts) the government could have cared less about immigration "for most of our history".
The problems we face regarding immigration are of recent manufacture and those were manufactured by government policies. Thus the only successes it had was when it ignored immigration.
Free labor markets work. Look at our GDP increase from the 1770's until the 1960's in constant dollars, here (slide 7).
(edited to clean up the ugly boxes)
Edited on June 13, 2012 at 3:16amJun '11
Re: Illegal Immigration Will Take Care of Itself
Instugator,
You once many moons ago were kind enough to jump into a similar debate on the same topic and say, "michael kelley is right."
In return, I offer here that Instugator is right.
This is a "sensitive" issue for this online community. We like them to cut our lawns and pick our beans but when it comes to giving them a chance to advance, we squabble.
Aug '10
Re: Illegal Immigration Will Take Care of Itself
michael kelley: Instugator,
You once many moons ago were kind enough to jump into a similar debate on the same topic and say, "michael kelley is right."
Thank you for the kind thought, Michael.
Feb '11
Re: Illegal Immigration Will Take Care of Itself
Instugator:
A quota system that ignored immigrants from the Western Hemisphere until the 1960s.
And I provided you evidence that you are incorrect- unless you believe Mexico is not part of the Western Hemisphere, which I doubt.
Let me quote myself yet again: My point is that the US government was able to set policy and make law as needed to enforce the border and when desired control immigration. Note the actual words I used.
Per your own comment the US government hasn't ignored immigration since 1875. Unless you believe the US immigration policy has been a failure since then I find your argument to lack merit.
...
Feb '11
Re: Illegal Immigration Will Take Care of Itself
Instugator:
Free labor markets work. Look at our GDP increase from the 1770's until the 1960's in constant dollars, here (slide 7).
I'll note that for most of that period the US had an assortment of import tariffs in place, which are verboten for policy makers today.
Let me borrow from you, roughly: It is a simple point, but in reality (one based in facts) the government imposed import tariffs "for most of our history".
So by that measure the US did not in fact have free labor markets as they seem to be defined today, which does not make a distinction between labor by Americans or by foreigners.
Should I interpret your endorsement of 1770s-1960s policy as an endorsement of tariffs?
Or are you just ignoring that aspect of policy?
Oct '10
Re: Illegal Immigration Will Take Care of Itself
Diane Ellis, Ed.
Citizenship is a pretty high barrier for admission into a public school, isn't it? I'd understand legal residency, but citizenship? By that standard, two Indian engineers who came to live and work for Microsoft wouldn't be able to send their children to school here.
No it's not. If you're an illegal alien or non-citizen here in the philippines, you can forget about FREE education. Same deal in Hong Kong, Singapore and other countries.
And these Indian engineers working in silicon valley will earn enough money (in time) to be able to a) bring their kids to the U.S. b) send their kids to U.S. private schools.
Edited on June 13, 2012 at 2:35pmOct '10
Re: Illegal Immigration Will Take Care of Itself
Diane Ellis, Ed.
As for the children of illegals — if they weren't abe to go to school, their parents would just leave them at home while they went to work. Not sure how a bunch of illiterate children who'll grow into adults "helps us greatly". That really isn't a solution to anything. · Jun 11 at 5:13pm
every country in the world offers free education to it's citizens. USE IT. the undocumented worker should not bother bringing his children illegally to the U.S. if they can't afford to enroll their kids in U.S. private schools.
Aug '10
Re: Illegal Immigration Will Take Care of Itself
@Xennady - Here, let me help you with that goalpost.
Dude, I am calling you out only for an assertion you made to @astonishing. Your assertion quoted here “The US controlled its borders and set immigration policy successfully for most of our history” is factually in error.
The US did not set immigration policy successfully for most of our history. A lack of laws is not evidence of policy. Policy is a framework of laws and actions that seek to accomplish some purpose.
A public health law that restricted Asian women from immigrating in 1875 is not an immigration policy. The quota system enacted in 1921 could be said to have started an immigration policy.
That is 61% of our history without an immigration policy. Therefore your qualifier of “most of our history” can now be discarded.
“Successfully” is the least problematic of your statement. Operation Wetback had to be halted due to public outcry and the US government had to pay compensation to the victims for civil rights abuses. The Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986 (Amnesty) was an admission of failure.
We are left with “the US controlled its borders and set immigration policy” a tautology.
QED.
Edited on June 13, 2012 at 2:42pmRe: Illegal Immigration Will Take Care of Itself
John Marzan
Diane Ellis, Ed.
As for the children of illegals — if they weren't abe to go to school, their parents would just leave them at home while they went to work. Not sure how a bunch of illiterate children who'll grow into adults "helps us greatly". That really isn't a solution to anything. · Jun 11 at 5:13pm
every country in the world offers free education to it's citizens. USE IT. the undocumented worker should not bother bringing his children illegally to the U.S. if they can't afford to enroll their kids in U.S. private schools. · 4 hours ago
But the fact of the matter is that they do bring their children. To merely say that they ought not doesn't solve anything.
Feb '11
Re: Illegal Immigration Will Take Care of Itself
@Instugator,
Nice job yet again ignoring nearly everything I actually wrote.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellis_Island
Ellis Island is an island in New York Harbor and was the gateway for millions of immigrants to the United States as the nation's busiest immigrant inspection station from 1892 until 1954.
Excuse me, but I can't help but notice that "immigrant inspection station" falsifies your claim that immigration was "ignored". The US government had a policy at the time of admitting all comers, except sick people- which, yes, falsifies your claim that the US government "ignored" immigration.
Also from the link: The Federal Government assumed control of immigration on April 18, 1890 and Congress appropriated $75,000 to construct America's first Federal immigration station on Ellis Island.
So 1890 until now- what percentage of our history is that? More than half, I think.
I brought up "Operation Wetback" was merely to falsify your claim that the quota system "ignored" immigration from the Western Hemisphere. If it took place- which it did- then therefore you cannot claim that US immigration policy "ignored" the Western Hemisphere.
I stand by my statements.
Aug '10
Re: Illegal Immigration Will Take Care of Itself
Xennady: @Instugator,
Nice job yet again ignoring nearly everything I actually wrote.
I am not ignoring everything you wrote, we are debating your single statement and you still haven't told me what the Immigration policy was - For Example, "Containment" was a National Security policy accepted from Presidents Truman through Reagan and designed to contain the spread of Communism abroad. Nor have you given a reasonable definition of how it was "successful".
I'll concede that the policy after 1921 was to retain the American ethnic mix as recorded in 1890 census (which is exactly what the quota system did). However, Mexican immigration was not subject to limitations until the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965.
So, please don't misquote me - I said the quota system of the 1920's ignored immigrants from the Western Hemisphere and that statement is true.
So does the Pancho Villa incursion in 1916 falsify your belief that the borders were "controlled" "successfully" as well?
Edited on June 13, 2012 at 9:52pmFeb '11
Re: Illegal Immigration Will Take Care of Itself
Instugator
- you still haven't told me what the Immigration policy was -
Huh?
Again- "The US government had a policy at the time of admitting all comers, except sick people- which, yes, falsifies your claim that the US government "ignored" immigration. "
That was the US government policy. To admit all comers, except for the sick.
It was "successful" because the public approved, at least enough not to mobilize against it. Eventually this policy changed, as we both know.
Instugator
So, please don't misquote me - I said the quota system of the 1920's ignored immigrants from the Western Hemisphere and that statement is true.
Maybe so, but I'm puzzled how you can say Mexican immigration was completely legal considering the policy of the Eisenhower administration to deport Mexican migrants.
Instugator
So does the Pancho Villa incursion in 1916 falsify your belief that the borders were "controlled" "successfully" as well? ·
The US government responded to Villa with an armed incursion into Mexico.
The point is that the government didn't simply give up and decide the borders were unenforceable, or that violent border incursions just couldn't be stopped, or shouldn't be.
It acted.