If Nothing Else Works, Leave it to the Market
David Limbaugh ·
Nov 24, 2010 at 9:34am
A new Zogby poll reveals that 61% oppose full body scans and TSA pat downs. But get this: 48% will seek alternatives to flying. Among frequent fliers, 59% oppose the procedures and 43% (or 42%) will seek alternatives to flying.
I don't know about you, but I find this stunning. It is inconceivable that, if true, this information will necessitate (and cause) some compromise solution -- a solution the arrogant government would not otherwise seek as energetically. As I understand it, demand for air travel has dramatically diminished since 9/11 and this kind of blow would be devastating to an already deeply troubled industry.
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Comments :
Re: If Nothing Else Works, Leave it to the Market
This perhaps further supports Ricochet member Michael Tee's proposal that the GOP should produce advertisments explaining that the TSA is the epitome of government in action.
Oct '10
Re: If Nothing Else Works, Leave it to the Market
Not to worry David. If your brother is right, the airline industry is being prepped to be the next GM. Many countries have a national airline, and in the interest of consistency, the Obama administration surely would see this as a natural progression.
May '10
Re: If Nothing Else Works, Leave it to the Market
This is Zogby Interactive, and thus not worth the Bits and Bytes required to publicize it. Other non-self-selected polls don't show the same results, so I suspect that the jury is out on this one.
I predict that 6 months from now no one will care at all. This is the most overblown,.over-hyped, phony issue since Valerie Plame.
Nov '10
Re: If Nothing Else Works, Leave it to the Market
Interestingly, the commercial airline industry has never been fully sound. It struggled through the 20s and 30s. It flourished through the 50s and 60s only because it rode the wave of technological innovation that was a byproduct of WWII. But even before 9/11, the airline industry was once again struggling to stay viable.
In the final analysis, the airplane is at its best as a military machine – an "instrument of vertical envelopment," as I like to phrase it – not as a commercial vehicle.
In the current climate of terror, it would not take much to put the airlines completely out of business. All the terrorists have to do is convince the public that they can destroy an aircraft at will. And the intelligence indicates that the terrorists are working very hard to achieve that goal. The next horror they unleash will probably be the surgically-implanted bomb, in the face of which, the TSA and that hapless idiot Napolitano will be completely helpless.
I have said it before, and I say it again: It is time to talk to the Israelis about airport security.
Nov '10
Re: If Nothing Else Works, Leave it to the Market
Duane Oyen:
I predict that 6 months from now no one will care at all. This is the most overblown, over-hyped, phony issue since Valerie Plame.
Do you really think so, Duane? You underestimate the government's ability to take a bad situation and make it even worse – much, much worse. And you are assuming that the terrorists will do nothing to radically alter the situation.
However, I do agree with you that the Valerie Plame issue was overblown, over-hyped and totally phony.
Nov '10
Re: If Nothing Else Works, Leave it to the Market
Oh, God, I hope not. If that happened, every aspect of air travel would be tainted by government incompetence, not just airport security. An airline run by the US government would go out of business overnight.
Oct '10
Re: If Nothing Else Works, Leave it to the Market
Lady Kurobara... When did incompetence and inefficiency stop ANY government operated company in the US. Perhaps the last election, led largely by the Taxed Enough Already Party, will be the ultimate undoing of this prophecy, but most likely it will be after the fact, when we begin the road back to Liberty.
Nov '10
Re: If Nothing Else Works, Leave it to the Market
I stand corrected. An airline run by the US government would not go out of business – even if no one ever bought a ticket to fly. The government would just keep funneling taxpayer money into the company to keep it afloat. Silly me.
Oct '10
Re: If Nothing Else Works, Leave it to the Market
It seems to me that a natural terrorist target is the line of people waiting to go through security at any major airport. All a terrorist would need to do is walk-up to the area with some kind of firearm or explosive device. The problem of getting through security is solved, because there would be no need to actually get through security to get on an airplane.
Edited on Nov 24, 2010 at 11:29amI am sure people in the government have thought of this and are trying to address it, but at this point, I imagine the bureaucracy is taking hold and the constituencies who are making a fortune off of this are probably in control.
Nov '10
Re: If Nothing Else Works, Leave it to the Market
I am sure people in the government have thought of this and are trying to address it, but at this point, I imagine the bureaucracy is taking hold and the constituencies who are making a fortune off of this are probably in control.
The Israelis have it covered. They keep their airport lines moving briskly and do not allow passengers to bunch up into convenient targets. There are many problems with TSA's (worthless) methods, not the least of which is they slow the line down.
On average, it takes just 25 minutes to get through Israeli airport security – from the time you actually enter the airport, to the moment you set foot on the plane.
Aug '10
Re: If Nothing Else Works, Leave it to the Market
I would be skeptical of taking such poll results too seriously as people tend not to be able to consciously articulate their preferences very well. It would be much better to treat this as a question of expressed preferences. That is, you look at what people do and infer what this means about what they want rather than what they say they want.
This would probably be best measured by a diff-in-diff looking at change in price and/or inventory for short trips with reasonable ground transportation substitutes (eg, LA-San Francisco, DC-NY) against longer trips that lack good ground transportation substitutes. Because even short trips might be foregone altogether, this would give a conservative estimate of TSA hatred.
May '10
Re: If Nothing Else Works, Leave it to the Market
Lady Kurobara
Duane Oyen:
I predict that 6 months from now no one will care at all. This is the most overblown, over-hyped, phony issue since Valerie Plame.
Do you really think so, Duane? You underestimate the government's ability to take a bad situation and make it even worse – much, much worse. And you are assuming that the terrorists will do nothing to radically alter the situation.
However, I do agree with you that the Valerie Plame issue was overblown, over-hyped and totally phony.
· Nov 24 at 10:47am
Yes, I do- because this is an artificial, phony issue, ginned up by radical libertarians and inconsistent anti-Obama types.
Layered defense is a fundamental principle of security, just as with securing the Southern border. A non-invasive, non-injurious technology layer added to other physical and software screen measures actually makes a great deal of sense. If Tom Ridge had put it in place in 2004, we would all have applauded.
I heard a silly woman on TV this morning saying that we shouldn't do this because it wouldn't have caught the underwear bomber. Give me a break.
I repeat (again)- call Stewart Baker.
Re: If Nothing Else Works, Leave it to the Market
Soon there may be no alternatives. Janet Napolitano is reportedly, intent on introducing the same procedures for travel by train, boat, and metro.
Oct '10
Re: If Nothing Else Works, Leave it to the Market
...and by 2035, this will be the procedure for getting in to see your doctor at your local government owned health care clinic. :)
Edited on Nov 24, 2010 at 12:32pmNov '10
Re: If Nothing Else Works, Leave it to the Market
tms
...and by 2035, this will be the procedure for getting in to see your doctor at your local government owned health care clinic. :)
That is too disturbing even to think about, because it is all too plausible.
Aug '10
Re: If Nothing Else Works, Leave it to the Market
Hmm... As for my expressed preference, my husband and I have owed a cross-continent trip to a Venerable Relative for more than two years now, a trip that pretty much has to be done by plane, and we still haven't taken it.
Other issues besides airport security have made it difficult to schedule the trip, but chances are excellent that if airplane travel were as low-hassle as it used to be, we'd have already done the trip.
Now I'm seriously thinking that the best way to actually accomplish said visit to Venerable Relative is during a cross-continental road trip.
Edited on Nov 24, 2010 at 1:18pmAug '10
Re: If Nothing Else Works, Leave it to the Market
How un-green of her! This will only drive more and more people into evil cars!
Nov '10
Re: If Nothing Else Works, Leave it to the Market
Duane Oyen
Layered defense is a fundamental principle of security, just as with securing the Southern border. A non-invasive, non-injurious technology layer added to other physical and software screen measures actually makes a great deal of sense.
The thing that troubles me is, you seem to be defending the details of a security system that is broken – in the sense that it is not only intrusive and time-consuming, but completely, totally, utterly ineffective. You are praising the interior decor on the Titanic, so to speak.
Critics refer to the TSA system as "Security Theater." It looks impressive, but it is not worth a damn. At best, it is entirely reflexive. The terrorists will always be one step ahead of the TSA.
Why not chuck the whole thing and go with the Israeli system of airport security? They seem to know what they are doing. For one thing, they are always trying to anticipate what the terrorists might do.
What is the flaw in that argument?
Edited on Nov 24, 2010 at 1:17pmAug '10
Re: If Nothing Else Works, Leave it to the Market
What Lady K just said.
If I had more confidence that the body scanners were part of a regimen that was really keeping us safer, I'd have less trouble accepting them. But I don't have that confidence.
To argue by analogy, many ladies put up with a yearly gynecological checkup. How many women would put up with someone monkeying with their nether regions like this if the folks doing the monkeying were yokels with no competence in gynecological medicine rather than skilled doctors looking for signs of reasonably common and sometimes tragic illness?
You'd have to be pretty weird to put up with a gynecological exam if you didn't feel it stood a decent shot at actually lessening illness.
So? So, body scans are a heckuva lot less, um, invasive than gynecological exams. But my visceral feeling is that the TSA is also a heckuva heckuva lot less competent than a trusted doctor.
May '10
Re: If Nothing Else Works, Leave it to the Market
Lady K, you do not know that. You cannot prove the deterrent effects of negatives- that is strictly an assertion. Tell me how many attacks were prevented since 2002. Yes? Answer? Right- I don't know either. No one does. And no one knows- or can know- what each layer does or does not do. I, for one, have no interest in shutting it all down to learn the answer. I don't defend the security system- I merely say that this particular adder is not the problem everyone is claiming.
Each defensive layer we add likely adds benefit; where you can add layers using technology, do it. That's why you build fences by El Paso, you also post cameras, fly drones, have a Border Patrol, and check employers, etc. No one step works, they all synergistically contribute.
We can and should adopt elements of the Israeli methods- but they don't have 70 airports and 350,000,000 people- if you think that TSA labor costs are high, try training 10,000 airport psychologists.