“I did not know if he was armed or not.” That, and George Zimmerman’s Lawyer Might Be An Idiot
I hate coming to conclusions until I’ve heard all the facts, but sometimes a piece of a story is just too irresistible to refrain from commenting about it.
Trayvon Martin killer George Zimmerman took the stand in his bail hearing. In a legally unnecessary apology to Trayvon’s family, he said of the boy, “I did not know if he was armed or not.”
Good grief. Why in the world would his attorneys allow him to say that?
If George didn’t know Trayvon was armed, the less reason there is to shoot him. Even if true, that didn’t have to come out now, and it only makes George look worse not better.
Certainly there are situations where an unarmed man (boy, rather) can be shot in self-defense.
However, George may have poisoned his own jury pool. If I’m the prosecution or Trayvon’s family, I’m keeping in the public ear as long as I can George’s admission that he did not know if the boy was armed, and still shot him.
The picture released today of the bloody back of George Zimmerman's head lends credibility to the claim that Trayvon banged George’s head on the ground.
Now, what I’m about to write may come from a certain cultural background, and it also may not vitiate George’s claim of self-defense, but here it goes: George Zimmerman should have taken his beating like a man and shouldn’t have shot a boy.
The facts that have come out so far (granted they could change) are that George Zimmerman targeted the boy, not the other way around. George was being a bully. If the boy started beating up the bully, then the bully should have at least expected that he could lose the fight, since the police advised him that they didn’t need him following Trayvon. That Trayvon could have kicked George’s rear-end is exactly WHY the police told him they didn’t need him to follow Trayvon.
A fair conclusion is that when George’s “neighborhood watch muscles” failed him, he cowardly went for his gun and shot an unarmed boy.
If he legitimately thought the boy was going to kill him that could change my mind. But until that evidence comes out, George Zimmerman is a punk who shot a boy he did not conclude was armed.
And he has a lousy lawyer.
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Comments:
Apr '11
Re: “I did not know if he was armed or not.” That, and George Zimmerman’s Lawyer Might Be An Idiot
Tommy De Seno
Basil Fawlty
First, we have Rob on the podcast telling us that Martin was shot in the back. Then we have Tommy repeating the "coon" slander. Who needs MSNBC when we've got Ricochet? · 3 hours ago
I didn't say that I believed he said coon. I said it is something that could come up in the trial (not all facts that come before a jury are correct, Basil, otherwise there would be no trial to begin with).
Zimmerman said the word was "punk." But his friend said it was coon and Zimmerman calls himself "datniggy." If I'm the prosectuation, I might consider putting those facts into evidence. · 3 minutes ago
With the tape available, you'd get a witness to testify to what they thought the tape said? I'm fascinated by how you'd try to evade hearsay restrictions.
Re: “I did not know if he was armed or not.” That, and George Zimmerman’s Lawyer Might Be An Idiot
Dave Carter
Still, I find the presumption of guilt coming from an attorney a bit disconcerting. · 2 hours ago
Dave,
I have no presumption of guilt. But if asked to decide the case based upon what has been released, I maintain Zimmerman has a big problem putting some doubt in my mind after a review of that evidence.
Listen to the entire 911 call. It is on YouTube.
Some on this thread maintain this incident doesn't happen if Treyvon just kept going. He did. For all the bad reporting the media has done against Zimmerman (they have and I've written twice about it on Ricochet) they also helped him by not highlighting the following:
Zimmerman tells the police that after Martin first came toward him, he then "ran away." He lamented that "a**holes always get away." He also tells the police that he can't see him anymore.
Sounds like he hunted that boy.
Re: “I did not know if he was armed or not.” That, and George Zimmerman’s Lawyer Might Be An Idiot
James Of England
Tommy De Seno
Basil Fawlty
First, we have Rob on the podcast telling us that Martin was shot in the back. Then we have Tommy repeating the "coon" slander. Who needs MSNBC when we've got Ricochet? · 3 hours ago
I didn't say that I believed he said coon. I said it is something that could come up in the trial (not all facts that come before a jury are correct, Basil, otherwise there would be no trial to begin with).
Zimmerman said the word was "punk." But his friend said it was coon and Zimmerman calls himself "datniggy." If I'm the prosectuation, I might consider putting those facts into evidence. · 3 minutes ago
With the tape available, you'd get a witness to testify to what they thought the tape said? I'm fascinated by how you'd try to evade hearsay restrictions. · 1 minute ago
I'd bolster the "coon" allegation with his friend's testimony that "coon" is a frequently used word by George.
My hurdle would be relevancy, not heresay.
Re: “I did not know if he was armed or not.” That, and George Zimmerman’s Lawyer Might Be An Idiot
Stuart Creque: I like how Trayvon Martin was definitely a boy, a mere child, at age 17.
I know that the law considers a 17-year-old a minor, but is it appropriate to infantalize 17 year olds as "boys" and "girls"? I mean, don't we send 17-year-olds off to college fairly routinely? Don't a significant number of 17-year-olds serve in the military? (Audie Murphy enlisted at age 17 by falsifying his birth certificate and somehow managed to thrive in the Army.)
Isn't it true also that we don't allow 17 year olds to drive Dave Carter's truck? We don't allow them to drink alcohol or even serve it? We don't trust them to vote?
There is no bright line on a 17 year old being a boy or man. It depends a great deal on the 17 year old.
Pick the 17 year old you are most fond of and ask him to walk across Camden NJ tonight. I'm betting you'll think it rather unfair to put him in that postion at his age.
Apr '11
Re: “I did not know if he was armed or not.” That, and George Zimmerman’s Lawyer Might Be An Idiot
Basil Fawlty
First, we have Rob on the podcast telling us that Martin was shot in the back. Then we have Tommy repeating the "coon" slander. Who needs MSNBC when we've got Ricochet? · 1 hour ago
I don't fault Rob, who disclaimed detailed knowledge of the case beforehand and stated that he was unaware that it was going to be discussed.
I'm more concerned by the suggestion that we'd support vigilante lynchings of weird men. Whatever the details of the Martin case, and we can disagree on whether Zimmerman was a coward who should have taken his murder like a man, we should be able to agree that even pedophiles should be able to walk their neighborhoods unmurdered.
Apr '11
Re: “I did not know if he was armed or not.” That, and George Zimmerman’s Lawyer Might Be An Idiot
Tommy De Seno
James Of England
With the tape available, you'd get a witness to testify to what they thought the tape said? I'm fascinated by how you'd try to evade hearsay restrictions. · 1 minute ago
I'd bolster the "coon" allegation with his friend's testimony that "coon" is a frequently used word by George.
My hurdle would be relevancy, not heresay. · 40 minutes ago
How is "I heard Zimmerman say "coon"" not offering "a statement, other than one made by the declarant while testifying at the trial or hearing, offered in evidence to prove the truth of the matter asserted"?
Are you saying it's character evidence? I'd say that the Florida statute also makes that a high bar.
Mar '11
Re: “I did not know if he was armed or not.” That, and George Zimmerman’s Lawyer Might Be An Idiot
James Of England
Basil Fawlty
First, we have Rob on the podcast telling us that Martin was shot in the back. Then we have Tommy repeating the "coon" slander. Who needs MSNBC when we've got Ricochet? · 1 hour ago
I don't fault Rob, who disclaimed detailed knowledge of the case beforehand and stated that he was unaware that it was going to be discussed.
I'm more concerned by the suggestion that we'd support vigilante lynchings of weird men. Whatever the details of the Martin case, and we can disagree on whether Zimmerman was a coward who should have taken his murder like a man, we should be able to agree that even pedophiles should be able to walk their neighborhoods unmurdered. · 27 minutes ago
I pretty much agree about Rob although, given the incendiary nature of the case, a clarification of the remark on a subsequent podcast would have been worthwhile.
Re: “I did not know if he was armed or not.” That, and George Zimmerman’s Lawyer Might Be An Idiot
James Of England
Tommy De Seno
James Of England
With the tape available, you'd get a witness to testify to what they thought the tape said? I'm fascinated by how you'd try to evade hearsay restrictions. · 1 minute ago
I'd bolster the "coon" allegation with his friend's testimony that "coon" is a frequently used word by George.
My hurdle would be relevancy, not heresay. · 40 minutes ago
How is "I heard Zimmerman say "coon"" not offering "a statement, other than one made by the declarant while testifying at the trial or hearing, offered in evidence to prove the truth of the matter asserted"?
Are you saying it's character evidence? I'd say that the Florida statute also makes that a high bar. · 29 minutes ago
Habit evidence.
Sep '10
Re: “I did not know if he was armed or not.” That, and George Zimmerman’s Lawyer Might Be An Idiot
I hate coming to conclusions until I’ve heard all the facts ...
Apparently you don't, Tommy, seeing as how you throw in the weird angle that Zimmerman could have been a pedophile (where in the world did that come from except your own mind?)
I don't know if it was stupid to say what Zimmerman said (and frankly I don't care because plaintiff attorneys don't care about facts, just about winning, which is why they don't answer questions but merely ask another question). What I heard was a man responding to the pain of a young man's mother, who had asked if he knew Trayvon was young or if he had a gun. That's who he cares about. ... As far as I'm concerned, that makes him an honorable guy. Also, if Trayvon did hit Zimmerman first (which I'm guessing is the case, Trayvon having seen that Zimmerman was smaller than he and that he could take him—and maybe his gun?) why is that not a problem for the prosecution? Why should Zimmerman get beat up by someone who refused to run away?
Re: “I did not know if he was armed or not.” That, and George Zimmerman’s Lawyer Might Be An Idiot
Leslie Watkins:I hate coming to conclusions until I’ve heard all the facts ...
Apparently you don't, Tommy, seeing as how you throw in the weird angle that Zimmerman could have been a pedophile (where in the world didthatcome from except your own mind?)
I didn't say he could have been a pedophile. You're misreading.
I don't think there is a Plaintiff's attorney on the scene in this case, and I don't know when one would have the opportunity to answer questions. They don't testify.
Quite a guess, but why? All we know is that Trayvon ran away from Zimmerman. What prompted your guess?
Jul '11
Re: “I did not know if he was armed or not.” That, and George Zimmerman’s Lawyer Might Be An Idiot
Ok I give. Why does his now defunct my space user profile name of "datniggytb" have any relevance to this event? You are going to have to help me on this one Tommy.
Apr '11
Re: “I did not know if he was armed or not.” That, and George Zimmerman’s Lawyer Might Be An Idiot
Quite a guess, but why? All we know is that Trayvon ran away from Zimmerman. What prompted your guess?
We know this?
Mar '11
Re: “I did not know if he was armed or not.” That, and George Zimmerman’s Lawyer Might Be An Idiot
Because it's clearly a synonym for macaca.
Re: “I did not know if he was armed or not.” That, and George Zimmerman’s Lawyer Might Be An Idiot
Some commenters asked a legal question - what rule of evidence would I use to try to get the word "coon" before the jury.
My answer was habit evidence - Zimmerman's habit of using racial slang words. His friend said Zimmerman uses "coon" all the time, and he calls himself "datniggy." It was in that context that it came up.
Re: “I did not know if he was armed or not.” That, and George Zimmerman’s Lawyer Might Be An Idiot
billy:Quite a guess, but why? All we know is that Trayvon ran away from Zimmerman. What prompted your guess?
We knowthis? · 12 minutes ago
Yes. Zimmerman said so on the telephone with the police. He said Treyvon ran away. He said he couldn't even see him anymore. He lamented that "a##holes always get away."
Not saying you, but if one is inclined to believe the new right wing hero (good grief!) then that one owns that unfortunate and damning utterance.
Oct '10
Re: “I did not know if he was armed or not.” That, and George Zimmerman’s Lawyer Might Be An Idiot
Tommy De Seno
Quite a guess, but why? All we know is that Trayvon ran away from Zimmerman. What prompted your guess? · 5 minutes ago
You meant quite a good guess, didn't you Tommy? Just trying to help.
Because the scenario of Trayvon walking up to Zimmerman (with the gun pocketed and out of sight) and taking a swing strikes me as much more likely than the Neighborhood Watch guy throwing the first punch. Do Neighborhood Watchers usually operate that way?
Not that it couldn't happen, but does it seem likely? Particularly given Trayvon's obvious yearnings to be a thug, evidenced by his internet postings. Interesting too, a friend of his posted (after Trayvon's death) a shout-out to Trayvon, stating he know his Buddy threw the first punch. A sort of 'Right-on, bro, I know you're that kind of guy!'
Oct '11
Re: “I did not know if he was armed or not.” That, and George Zimmerman’s Lawyer Might Be An Idiot
Tommy, you did suggest that Martin would be justified in attacking Zimmerman if he thought Zimmerman were a pedophile. You can play games to say that you didn't say Zimmerman could be a pedophile, just that Martin might have thought he was a pedophile. The reality is that you are attempting to justify why Martin might have attacked Zimmerman.
Your argument so far has been that Zimmerman hunted down and killed Martin. But just to hedge your bets, you're also suggesting that it would be perfectly acceptable to kill a pedophile. You're trying to argue both sides. Zimmerman attacked Martin, but if Martin attacked Zimmerman (which he didn't) then he was justified.
In other words, no matter what happened, Zimmerman's at fault, according to you. And yet you claim that you aren't presuming Zimmerman guilty until proven innocent. Well, you're only fooling yourself, because it doesn't seem like most other members hear believe you.
I don't know if Zimmerman is ultimately guilty of a crime.
Re: “I did not know if he was armed or not.” That, and George Zimmerman’s Lawyer Might Be An Idiot
Severely Ltd.
Tommy De Seno
Quite a guess, but why? All we know is that Trayvon ran away from Zimmerman. What prompted your guess? · 5 minutes ago
You meant quite agoodguess, didn't you Tommy? Just trying to help.
Because the scenario of Trayvon walking up to Zimmerman (with the gun pocketed and out of sight) and taking a swing strikes me as much more likely than the Neighborhood Watch guy throwing the first punch. Do Neighborhood Watchers usually operate that way?
Not that it couldn't happen, but does it seem likely? Particularly given Trayvon's obvious yearnings to be a thug, evidenced by his internet postings. Interesting too, a friend of his posted (after Trayvon's death) a shout-out to Trayvon, stating he know his Buddy threw the first punch. A sort of 'Right-on, bro, I know you're that kind of guy!' · 2 minutes ago
What do you make of Zimmerman on the audio tape telling the police that Treyvon ran away?
Oct '11
Re: “I did not know if he was armed or not.” That, and George Zimmerman’s Lawyer Might Be An Idiot
Tommy De Seno
Not saying you, but if one is inclined to believe the new right wing hero (good grief!) then that one owns that unfortunate and damning utterance. · 5 minutes ago
Right-wing hero? Where are you getting this?
Oct '11
Re: “I did not know if he was armed or not.” That, and George Zimmerman’s Lawyer Might Be An Idiot
Tommy De Seno
What do you make of Zimmerman on the audio tape telling the police that Treyvon ran away? · 1 minute ago
I took that to mean that Zimmerman had given up the pursuit. But I could be wrong, because I wasn't there.