Hoyer: People Don't Kill People, Guns Do.
Last week, Member Barfly wrote a post positing that ATF's Operation Fast & Furious existed to put guns in the hands of Mexican criminals who would use them to kill victims south of the border. Then, when the guns were recovered by authorities at crime scenes, and demonstrated to have come from America, the outrage generated would provide the Obama administration a convenient reason to pursue gun control laws here at home. That explanation has all the trimmings of a conspiracy theory — it's pretty complicated and exceedingly wicked. And that level of nefariousness is just not something that most of us are willing to attribute to the U.S. government, regardless of the administration in charge.
But, get a load of Democratic whip Steny Hoyer's comments to reporters on the Fast and Furious scandal:
"The premise is that somehow letting these guns go across the border resulted in this tragic death," Hoyer told reporters in the Capitol. "[But] people kill people, not guns, I'm told on a regular basis.
"And controlling guns – whether it's assault weapons or others – would not solve the problem, I am told by some," he added, referring to gun-reform critics. "So such legislation is not necessary because it is people who kill people. I hope you see the contradiction in the positions being taken.
"The fact of the matter is this life was tragically lost because there are some criminals on both sides of the border who facilitate violent criminal behavior," Hoyer said.
I already felt profoundly uneasy before I read Hoyer's remarks, but if his sentiments are widespread throughout his party, I fear that the worst explanation possible is indeed probable.
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Sep '11
Re: Hoyer: People Don't Kill People, Guns Do.
Can you think of any other?
Oct '11
Re: Hoyer: People Don't Kill People, Guns Do.
Good catch Diane.
The people the government deliberately gave guns to had immediate potential to use them illegally. After all these people are drug runners.
It would be a stretch to assume that like most law abiding individuals they would be used for recreation or the protection of home and family.
He's right - people do kill people. But you shouldn't help them do it.
It's probably never wise to be complicit in a murder.
Re: Hoyer: People Don't Kill People, Guns Do.
Perhaps sheer incompetence. Maybe the guns were meant to be tracked, and that part of the operation was botched up.
Mar '11
Re: Hoyer: People Don't Kill People, Guns Do.
Diane Ellis, Ed.:
"The fact of the matter is this life was tragically lost because there are some criminals on both sides of the border who facilitate violent criminal behavior," Hoyer said.
There were criminals on one side of the border and the US government on the other side helping to facilitate violent criminal behavior.
The more the government stonewalls releasing information the more I am inclined to believe the "conspiracy theories". As Maggie asks above, I am running out of additional explanations. If this was just a mistake or "botched" operation there would be no reason to hide the details.
Jun '10
Re: Hoyer: People Don't Kill People, Guns Do.
I was watching Katie Pavlich (who wrote a book on Fast & Furious) today on Hotair.com's video podcast, and according to her, the gun dealers were told by the ATF, "buyers are coming to buy lots of guns, and they may seem fishy and have phony-looking ID, but just let them buy the guns. It's part of a law enforcement operation." And Pavlich said, these gun dealers were reluctant to do it. They had to be pushed. They have lots of friends and customers in law enforcement, and they didn't want to see anybody get hurt by putting guns in the wrong hands. The gun dealers were the least of the problem here.
Edited on June 28, 2012 at 12:39amAug '11
Re: Hoyer: People Don't Kill People, Guns Do.
Wait, Diane . . . your subject header is in contradiction to what Hoyer apparently said. "People kill people, not guns."
Anyway, I'm trying to wrap my head around what he's saying here. Obviously he's being sarcastic, . . . right? But he's using the arguments of gun rights advocates to sort of handwave-away this entire scandal, right?
But if he's saying that we shouldn't be concerned about guns crossing the border because "people kill people, not guns," then logically he should be concerned about people crossing the border . . . right?
Aug '11
Re: Hoyer: People Don't Kill People, Guns Do.
Yep. Gun dealers alerted the ATF and didn't want to sell them to the straw buyers, but the ATF instructed them to continue.
Re: Hoyer: People Don't Kill People, Guns Do.
Jager
Diane Ellis, Ed.:
"The fact of the matter is this life was tragically lost because there are some criminals on both sides of the border who facilitate violent criminal behavior," Hoyer said.
...If this was just a mistake or "botched" operation there would be no reason to hide the details. · 12 minutes ago
That's not completely true. There are consequences for mistakes and for incompetence.
May '11
Re: Hoyer: People Don't Kill People, Guns Do.
Diane Ellis, Ed.:
There it is. An admission that the DOJ and by extension the Administration are "criminals". Did the DOJ not facilitate the transfer of these guns to criminals promoting violent behavior? That IS criminal.
Sep '11
Re: Hoyer: People Don't Kill People, Guns Do.
Diane Ellis, Ed.
Perhaps sheer incompetence. Maybe the guns were meant to be tracked, and that part of the operation was botched up. · 16 minutes ago
If this were the case, I think the error would have occurred pretty far down the food chain and it is hard to imagine what could have been so important about it for the AG to stonewall for so long and the president to invoke executive privilege.
Re: Hoyer: People Don't Kill People, Guns Do.
DrewInWisconsin: Wait, Diane . . . your subject header is in contradiction to what Hoyer apparently said. "People kill people, not guns."
Anyway, I'm trying to wrap my head around what he's saying here. Obviously he's being sarcastic, . . . right? But he's using the arguments of gun rights advocates to sort of handwave-away this entire scandal, right?
But if he's saying that we shouldn't be concerned about guns crossing the border because "people kill people, not guns," then logically he should be concerned about peoplecrossing the border . . . right? · 9 minutes ago
Hoyer was sarcastically parroting the "guns don't kill people..." line from the pro-2nd amendment side because he believes that guns do kill people and thus need to be restricted or altogether outlawed. And if only there was a way to demonstrate this to the rest of the world, there might be a basis for pursuing gun control laws.
Aug '11
Re: Hoyer: People Don't Kill People, Guns Do.
Diane Ellis, Ed.
DrewInWisconsin: Wait, Diane . . . your subject header is in contradiction to what Hoyer apparently said. "People kill people, not guns."
Anyway, I'm trying to wrap my head around what he's saying here. Obviously he's being sarcastic, . . . right? But he's using the arguments of gun rights advocates to sort of handwave-away this entire scandal, right?
But if he's saying that we shouldn't be concerned about guns crossing the border because "people kill people, not guns," then logically he should be concerned about peoplecrossing the border . . . right? · 9 minutes ago
Hoyer was sarcastically parroting the "guns don't kill people..." line from the pro-2nd amendment side because he believes that guns dokill people and thus need to be restricted or altogether outlawed. And if only there was a way to demonstrate this to the rest of the world, there might be a basis for pursuing gun control laws.
But . . . but then shouldn't he be demanding every last bit of information from Eric Holder?
I just don't understand how leftists think. (Or maybe I do, and I just don't understand how anyone can vote for them.)
Re: Hoyer: People Don't Kill People, Guns Do.
DrewInWisconsin
Diane Ellis, Ed.
Hoyer was sarcastically parroting the "guns don't kill people..." line from the pro-2nd amendment side because he believes that guns dokill people and thus need to be restricted or altogether outlawed. And if only there was a way to demonstrate this to the rest of the world, there might be a basis for pursuing gun control laws.
But . . . but then shouldn't he be demanding every last bit of information from Eric Holder?
I just don't understand how leftists think. (Or maybe I do, and I just don't understand how anyone can vote for them.) · 19 minutes ago
No. He wants the takeaway to be: Wow, guns are a huge problem. Look at what happened! We need to ban guns! Right now!
Oct '10
Re: Hoyer: People Don't Kill People, Guns Do.
Unwise choices by Politicians and the Justice Dept killed people.
Goes far beyond guns.
Jun '10
Re: Hoyer: People Don't Kill People, Guns Do.
Operation "Wide Receiver" was a similar program attempted in the Bush administration to ostensibly track these weapons, which had terribly ineffective GPS devices attached, to the Mexican cartels. It was really stupid and was cancelled after its failure. Why, then, was the lesson not only not learned but repeated with zero means to track the guns? It is either a perfect example of insanity or something much more nefarious.
Oct '10
Re: Hoyer: People Don't Kill People, Guns Do.
"People Died, Holder Lied"
Chant endlessly ... well, at least until November 6th!
Jul '11
Re: Hoyer: People Don't Kill People, Guns Do.
I would like Holder/Justice to explain what F&F’s operational goal was. If it was successful what would have been accomplished? What would have been learned? Did we learn anything? Why would achieving that goal be important and worth the elevated risk to citizens and law enforcement on both sides of the border? What has been or should have been the pay off? Why is nobody asking these questions?
So far all I heard is that the feds pressured gun dealers to sell guns to known criminals on this side of the border to see if the guns showed up in crimes by known criminals on the other side of the border. Dah, of course some of the guns did, that is common sense. So why use time, resources and risk assets to prove what anybody would take as a given?
Mar '11
Re: Hoyer: People Don't Kill People, Guns Do.
It's probable Brian Terry and hundreds of Mexicans would have been killed if Fast and Furious had never happened. The cartels have plenty of money, there are plenty of places in the world where guns can be bought, and it's not as if they're worried about breaking the law. What Fast and Furious did was make it cheaper and more convenient for the cartels to buy guns from U.S. dealers.
The only reasonable explanation for Fast and Furious was to appear to validate the Mexican government's allegation that violence in their country was attributable to the 2nd Amendment, which has been endorsed a number of times by Democrats.
Oct '10
Re: Hoyer: People Don't Kill People, Guns Do.
It is more nefarious than insanity ... it's called government bureaucracy. It transforms otherwise well-meaning and reasonably intelligent people into self-serving buffoons, capable of monstrous stupidity and jaw dropping venality. And under Obama it grows and grows and grows.
Dec '10
Re: Hoyer: People Don't Kill People, Guns Do.
Diane Ellis, Ed.
Perhaps sheer incompetence. Maybe the guns were meant to be tracked, and that part of the operation was botched up. · 1 hour ago
Oh yes, tracking was undertaken the agents on the ground, but was then ordered stopped by the director in charge (IE man at the immediate top), on orders from above him.
The original whistleblower attempted to maintain surveillance anyway, and was ultimately physically restrained until contact was lost, and threatened with punitive action if he continued to track the weapons in question.
They WANTED those guns to go AWOL. That was the plan from the start. Why else would you order all tracking to cease, to the point of physically restraining someone intent on maintaining said tracking?
I will reserve any "Toldjaso's" until after good evidence comes to light, but I am in no way surprised that the higher ups in ATF, FBI, and DOJ would conspire on this level to restrict our freedoms and arrogate power to their respective agencies.
THAT is what they do for a living, while fighting "crime" on the side.