How's That Prohibition Working Out For You?
From Reason.com:
At 5:30 a.m. on May 10, armed men broke into the bedroom of Kirk Kyle Farrar’s 12 year-old daughter and shook her awake. The men led her downstairs at gunpoint and forced her to lie on the floor next to her mother and father, with her hands behind her head. Another armed man took Farrar’s two-year-old son from his crib, and would not let his parents hold him. “My son screamed for his mother for what seemed like an eternity,” Farrar wrote in an email to friends, obtained by Reason. “I will never forget the hopeless feeling of not being able to comfort my son or daughter.”
The armed men who broke into Farrar’s home were officers with the Meridian, Idaho, Police Department and the Drug Enforcement Administration. They were executing a federal warrant for Farrar’s arrest for the crime of selling bongs.
Emphasis is mine. This was part of a larger bust of several head shops.
Farrar’s wasn’t the only family traumatized that morning. Agents from the Drug Enforcement Administration, the U.S. Marshals Service, the Idaho National Guard, and four Idaho police departments raided the homes of 13 other headshop owners and employees on May 10. All of the headshops had their inventory seized. One shop lost more than $80,000 worth of merchandise (bongs and pipes marketed as “tobacco water pipes”). Another headshop owner had his and and his employees' vehicles seized.
The investigation into these 13 shops and their employees (two of which are still at large) for selling drug paraphernalia was led by U.S. Attorney Wendy J. Olson, a Barack Obama appointee. Nine of the shops were also accused of selling "spice," a synthetic alternative to the prohibited and significantly safer drug marijuana.
Really? All this force? All these resources to beat down shop owners for daring to sell pipes?
Do you really need to raid people's homes at 5:30am, point guns at them and their children?
If you support the War on Drugs, doesn't this bother you? Does this seem right to you? Does it seem fair? Does dragging 12-year-olds from their beds at gunpoint because their father sold pipes seem just to you?
Is the War on Marijuana worth it?
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Comments:
Jun '10
Re: How's That Prohibition Working Out For You?
Franco
etoiledunord
If you make drug paraphernalia, then who will your business associates be? If law enforcement is looking for someone they can't find, they're likely to go looking where their friends are. Especially if they have a tip to that effect.
If you lived in the South 100 years ago, you could say, "I just make white robes and hoods. I have no control over how they're used. It's not my fault."
Really? You can't speculate about how they're used and who you're serving? · 3 minutes ago
I'm glad we are not living under your legal constructs.
And the idea of eliminating racism by cracking down on hoodmakers is hilarious. · 1 minute ago
I didn't say you had to crack down on robe- and hood-makers, but if I'm out to arrest a violent Klansman, and he had to ditch his robe and hood while escaping from me, that's maybe where I'd look for him. Don't you think?
Feb '12
Re: How's That Prohibition Working Out For You?
etoiledunord
Franco: Here's the thing about marijuana and it's legality: About 40 million Americans use it. Presidents, including our last three, Obama Bush and Clinton, have admitted using it. Our current Pres. has recently been joking about having used it, meanwhile things like this happen every day.
People from all walks of life, including police officers, use it. The drug is benign compared to alcohol.
It is foolish to make laws which can't be enforced, and it creates the ability to prosecute based on alternate criteria, introducing fundamental unfairness into the legal system and thus undermining the rule of law.
Then change the law. Don't look for better ways to break it. There are plenty of nations in this world where passing a new law means nothing, changes nothing. You don't want to live in these places. · 5 minutes ago
Etoile, am I missing something (sincere question)? Are you suggesting it's appropriate to send in a SWAT team to confiscate drug paraphenalia (not ten kilos of cocaine - just drug paraphenalia)? When it comes to searches and seizures, should we cease to make distinctions among crimes?
Aug '10
Re: How's That Prohibition Working Out For You?
Foxman
Midget Faded Rattlesnake
Fred Cole
Someone who has no moral objection to peaceful (as if there's any other kind) marijuana consumption...
Many doctors won't go into pain medicine because of the risk of being harassed by the DEA. I think it's a shame that this happens, but I hardly blame the doctors. I'd do the same thing in their situation. · 0 minutes ago
That is you reasoning? The government is abusive to other too?
You conveniently deleted the part I wrote about how even someone who supports the legalization of marijuana may nonetheless avoid selling marijuana-related items out of prudence.
My observation was obviously no justification for what happened. Merely a reflection of the fact that even when The Way Things Are sucks harder than a Dyson, people are fools not to take The Way Things Are into account when making their decisions.
I'm very sorry that wasn't clear to you.
Edited on May 21, 2012 at 5:16pmDec '10
Re: How's That Prohibition Working Out For You?
One of the reasons I can't read Reason very often. There are many libertarian hills on which to make a stand; pot doesn't seem like the right one to die on.
Feb '11
Re: How's That Prohibition Working Out For You?
Hmmm.
If I think no-knock raids by paramilitary thugs are unjustified, wrong, and vile therefore I must also conclude that pot should be legalized.
Have you ever heard the phrase "non sequitur"?
Sep '10
Re: How's That Prohibition Working Out For You?
etoiledunord
Franco:
People from all walks of life, including police officers, use it. The drug is benign compared to alcohol.
It is foolish to make laws which can't be enforced, and it creates the ability to prosecute based on alternate criteria, introducing fundamental unfairness into the legal system and thus undermining the rule of law.
Then change the law. Don't look for better ways to break it. There are plenty of nations in this world where passing a new law means nothing, changes nothing. You don't want to live in these places.
People, lots of them, are breaking this law. What are YOU going to do about it - put them ALL in jail? Smash all their pipes? Outlaw rolling papers? Intimidate them with SWAT teams? Apparently you are okay with that - they broke the law, they had it coming. I doubt you are totally crime-free in your life. You have probably broken several laws at one time or other. Under your reasoning, you too are a criminal. Join the club.
Dec '10
Re: How's That Prohibition Working Out For You?
I do not now, nor have I ever, used pot. I wonder how much your tune would change if was your child, or grandchild, who had a gun stuck in his face in a raid that was a mistake.
Sep '10
Re: How's That Prohibition Working Out For You?
The King Prawn
One of the reasons I can't read Reason very often. There are many libertarian hills on which to make a stand; pot doesn't seem like the right one to die on.
Cylon -
Just because someone is against bad laws, or happens to agree with libertarians on some issue, doesn't make them a "libertarian" okay?
Edited on May 21, 2012 at 5:35pmJun '10
Re: How's That Prohibition Working Out For You?
Leporello
etoiledunord
Franco: Here's the thing about marijuana and it's legality: About 40 million Americans use it. Presidents, including our last three, Obama Bush and Clinton, have admitted using it. Our current Pres. has recently been joking about having used it, meanwhile things like this happen every day.
People from all walks of life, including police officers, use it. The drug is benign compared to alcohol.
It is foolish to make laws which can't be enforced, and it creates the ability to prosecute based on alternate criteria,.....
Then change the law. Don't look for better ways to break it. There are plenty of nations in this world where passing a new law means nothing, changes nothing. You don't want to live in these places.
Etoile, am I missing something (sincere question)? Are you suggesting it's appropriate to send in a SWAT team to confiscate drug paraphenalia (not ten kilos of cocaine - just drug paraphenalia)? When it comes to searches and seizures, should we cease to make distinctions among crimes?
Italian-American Social Clubs in New York and New Jersey once suffered a lot of "random" police harassment too. It's just so unfair.
Dec '10
Re: How's That Prohibition Working Out For You?
Xennady: Hmmm.
If I think no-knock raids by paramilitary thugs are unjustified, wrong, and vile therefore I must also conclude that pot should be legalized.
Have you ever heard the phrase "non sequitur"? · 5 minutes ago
Read the post. The question posed is: Why this level of force?
Jul '11
Re: How's That Prohibition Working Out For You?
Our swat teams do not do no knock raids here. They also just make people flush their pot anyway because they don't care. This whole thing was pretty heavy handed. I guess dope paraphernalia peddlers aren't armed well or inclined to resist.
Feb '12
Re: How's That Prohibition Working Out For You?
etoiledunord
Leporello
etoiledunord
Then change the law. Don't look for better ways to break it. There are plenty of nations in this world where passing a new law means nothing, changes nothing. You don't want to live in these places.
Etoile, am I missing something (sincere question)? Are you suggesting it's appropriate to send in a SWAT team to confiscate drug paraphenalia (not ten kilos of cocaine - just drug paraphenalia)? When it comes to searches and seizures, should we cease to make distinctions among crimes?
Italian-American Social Clubs in New York and New Jersey once suffered a lot of "random" police harassment too. It's just so unfair. · 1 minute ago
Still not following. This isn't mere harassment, and innocents regularly suffer or die as a result of such a heavy-handed approach.
I don't use or support using pot, nor does anyone in my small apartment building, but there is a basis for being concerned about the consequence of a badly executed warrant.
Feb '12
Re: How's That Prohibition Working Out For You?
Foxman
Xennady: Hmmm.
If I think no-knock raids by paramilitary thugs are unjustified, wrong, and vile therefore I must also conclude that pot should be legalized.
Have you ever heard the phrase "non sequitur"? · 5 minutes ago
Read the post. The question posed is: Why this level of force? · 4 minutes ago
To be fair, the title is a little misleading and does conflate the prohibition on marijuana with the violation of the 4th amendment. And Fred does ask, "Is the War on Marijuana worth it?"
On the other hand, the two issues are closely linked, even if not identical, since so many botched raids occur when officials are looking for drug law violators.
Edited on May 21, 2012 at 6:37pmJun '10
Re: How's That Prohibition Working Out For You?
Leporello
etoiledunord
Leporello
etoiledunord
Then change the law. Don't look for better ways to break it. There are plenty of nations in this world where passing a new law means nothing, changes nothing. You don't want to live in these places.
Etoile, am I missing something (sincere question)? Are you suggesting it's appropriate to send in a SWAT team to confiscate drug paraphenalia (not ten kilos of cocaine - just drug paraphenalia)? When it comes to searches and seizures, should we cease to make distinctions among crimes?
Italian-American Social Clubs in New York and New Jersey once suffered a lot of "random" police harassment too. It's just so unfair. · 1 minute ago
Still not following. This isn't mere harassment, and innocents regularly suffer or die as a result of such a heavy-handed approach....
I guess, it comes down to the old adage: Tell me who your friends are, and I'll tell you who you are. Nobody is forced to get involved in the illegal drug culture. It's a choice. It means some of your "friends" will have arrest warrants pending, and it might mean that you end up right in the middle.
Sep '10
Re: How's That Prohibition Working Out For You?
etoiledunord
Leporello
etoiledunord
Leporello
etoiledunord
Then change the law. Don't look for better ways to break it. There are plenty of nations in this world where passing a new law means nothing, changes nothing. You don't want to live in these places.
Etoile, am I missing something (sincere question)? Are you suggesting it's appropriate to send in a SWAT team to confiscate drug paraphenalia (not ten kilos of cocaine - just drug paraphenalia)? When it comes to searches and seizures, should we cease to make distinctions among crimes?
Still not following. This isn't mere harassment, and innocents regularly suffer or die as a result of such a heavy-handed approach....
I guess, it comes down to the old adage: Tell me who your friends are, and I'll tell you who you are. Nobody is forced to get involved in the illegal drug culture. It's a choice. It means some of your "friends" will have arrest warrants pending, and it might mean that you end up right in the middle. ·
Save yourself from prosecution and unfriend me now.
Sep '11
Re: How's That Prohibition Working Out For You?
Friends,
Let's tone down the conversation a bit. Fred's asked a question about the whether the SWAT raid over "tobacco water pipes," (heh) was appropriate. The digression into whether pot should be legal is (a) beside the point, and (b) getting overheated.
Let's get back to the point at hand: what's the proper means to effectuate a search warrant for "evidence" of possession of perfectly legal items? Specifically, items which may have some use as accessories to illegal drug use?
Let's get specific: I have a big syringe of pharmaceuticals in the back seat of my car. Should the local cops go all Latin America ninja on my obviously-drug-dealing ass, and storm my property by fast-roping down from helicopters?
The syringe contains veterinary pharmaceuticals for horses. It's a sample, which a 4-H leader gave me to give to a trainer. The contents aren't dangerous--but other veterinary pharmaceuticals certainly are: and there are people abusing vet pharmaceuticals because they're available without a prescription. Does that syringe provide a basis for a SWAT raid?
Mar '11
Re: How's That Prohibition Working Out For You?
Should every 7-11 owner nationwide should fear the jackbooted thugs from the DEA? Everyone under the age of 40 knows that +EZ Widers and ZigZags are for rolling joints, and nobody smokes a Phillie
for it's tobacco goodness, the tobacco is dumped and pot is packed into them. Sure they CAN be used/smoked with tobacco, but most are not, and the stores know it.
Hey! As a former college student on a budget, a Philly Blunt isn't totally awful as a cigar - It's the Swisher Sweets you gotta avoid there...
Sep '11
Re: How's That Prohibition Working Out For You?
John Murdoch:
The syringe contains veterinary pharmaceuticals for horses. It's a sample, which a 4-H leader gave me to give to a trainer. The contents aren't dangerous--but other veterinary pharmaceuticals certainly are: and there are people abusing vet pharmaceuticals because they're available without a prescription. Does that syringe provide a basis for a SWAT raid?
The trainer in question works at the therapeutic riding program where my daughter works during school hours. I almost stuck it in her book bag this morning, with a note to her teachers to send it along to the barn.
Then it occurred to me that my daughter's classroom aide just might not understand....
Mar '11
Re: How's That Prohibition Working Out For You?
This is a late forray here, but setting aside the drug legalization issue for the moment, let me ask a question:
Why do so many police departments and federal agencies now have SWAT teams anyway?
IRS? They've got one - why?
Dept. of Education - yup, they've got one too.
From a longer article on the Rutherford Institute's website:
Sooo.... Why?
May '12
Re: How's That Prohibition Working Out For You?
Foxman
I do not now, nor have I ever, used pot. I wonder how much your tune would change if was your child, or grandchild, who had a gun stuck in his face in a raid that was a mistake. · 33 minutes ago
If I was stupid enough to be running an illegal business out of my home I would say I deserve what I get. You don't have a right to not have your kids scared by the police if you want to break the law in their presence. I have no doubt there are many principled libertarians. But my experience tells me that marijuana legalization is the ultimate issue for many of them. There should be a corollary to Godwins law that states the longer a conversation with a libertarian runs, the odds of it devolving into an argument to legalize pot approaches one. I know libertarianism is about more than legal pot. It's a shame libertarians let that issue become the face of their public outrage so often.