Harry, Carly and the DREAM Act
In a shameless attempt to shore up the Hispanic vote in Nevada, Harry Reid has announced that the Development, Relief and Education for Alien Minors (DREAM) Act will be included in the defense authorization bill as an amendment, pending Senate approval.
The DREAM Act, which HotAir’s Allahpundit terms a “ground-preparer for amnesty”, would grant illegals who have graduated from high school in the United States and are of good moral character, temporary residence status. Then, within a six-year period, the temporary resident must complete at least two years of higher education or serve at least two years in the military to become eligible for permanent residence.
Many opponents of amnesty oppose this bill on the premise that funding the education of minors who are here illegally would not only cost millions of taxpayer dollars, but also incentivize future illegal immigration.
But opponents of amnesty need not necessarily oppose the DREAM Act as California Republican Senate candidate Carly Fiorina has demonstrated. In her recent debate with Barbara Boxer, Fiorina said that while she does not support blanket amnesty,
I would support the DREAM Act because I do not believe that we can punish children who through no fault of their own are here trying to live the American dream…The way to get the economy going again is to go with comprehensive immigration reform. The DREAM Act is part of that…I believe that the 21st century is the century of brainpower and innovation. We need to cultivate all the brainpower we can by making sure that people are well educated here.
While Fiorina may be making the same sort of political calculation as Harry Reid, I’m sympathetic to her argument. When we imagine that we have the option of casting out every single illegal immigrant, including the ones who have lived here since their early childhood, we delude ourselves. If we do nothing, inertia alone will create a shadow class of underperforming semi-Americans who have a hard time pursuing college educations and obtaining good jobs because they lack the necessary paperwork. Ultimately, these people become a net drain on society's resources. On the other hand, a conditional residence program like the one embodied by the DREAM Act would enable children who are currently here illegally to pursue an education and hopefully become productive members of American society.
As much as I loathe to support anything that has Harry Reid’s fingerprints on it, I just don’t see an alternative.
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Jul '10
Re: Harry, Carly and the DREAM Act
The DREAM act is reason number 2,240 to dump Orin Hatch next time he comes up for re-election.
So, as I understand it, the act proposes to reward those young people who managed to successfully break the law for an extended period, while living off the American taxpayer - as opposed to, say, their less savvy counterparts who only managed to break the law for some lesser period of time.
Do I have that right?
Well, then, why not broaden the principle to other types of criminal activity? Let's say that someone who has been selling drugs for 12 years gets a pass, but someone who only started last Tuesday gets the book thrown at him?
Edited on Sep 14, 2010 at 4:45pmRe: Harry, Carly and the DREAM Act
Kenneth: The DREAM act is reason number 2,240 to dump Orin Hatch next time he comes up for re-election.
His many "esteemed colleagues" and "dear friends" in the Senate are gonna miss him. · Sep 14 at 4:39pm
I could've guessed that you wouldn't be a fan of the thing, but can you articulate why? I'm persuadable on this one, but I just haven't been able to envision a viable solution to the problem of what we do with illegals who came here as little kids.
Re: Harry, Carly and the DREAM Act
Kenneth:
So, as I understand it, the act proposes to reward those young people who managed to successfully break the law for an extended period, while living off the American taxpayer - as opposed to, say, their less savvy counterparts who only managed to break the law for some lesser period of time.
Do I have that right?
I don't think that's a fair characterization. What if your parents came here illegally when you were a baby, and you've grown up in the States your whole life? You'd punish a person with that circumstance? It doesn't seem just.
Jul '10
Re: Harry, Carly and the DREAM Act
Diane Ellis, Ed.
Kenneth: The DREAM act is reason number 2,240 to dump Orin Hatch next time he comes up for re-election.
His many "esteemed colleagues" and "dear friends" in the Senate are gonna miss him. · Sep 14 at 4:39pm
I could've guessed that you wouldn't be a fan of the thing, but can you articulate why? I'm persuadable on this one, but I just haven't been able to envision a viable solution to the problem of what we do with illegals who came here as little kids. · Sep 14 at 4:46pm
Because I believe in enforcing the laws already on the books, not incrementally watering them down because we lack the will. It is quite possible, by fiercely sanctioning employers who violate the law and by closing the border, to cause illegals to self-deport.
Our failure to demonstrate iron-jawed resolve only attracts yet more illegals, hastening the day when our feckless politicians surrender and declare amnesty, at which point our national sovereignty is lost.
Besides, DREAM is a compassion thing. I'm a Libertarian - we don't do compassion.
Jun '10
Re: Harry, Carly and the DREAM Act
This may have something to do with Orin Hatch's devotion to the DREAM act:
Feb 5, 2009 - (Reuters) - Mormonism is growing in Latin America where new members are attracted by such factors as the church's affluence and stability, as well as its family image and the belief that Jesus Christ visited the Americas after he was resurrected. The following are facts about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, as the Mormon church is formally called: * The once-isolated group, based in Salt Lake City, Utah, is one of the fastest-growing and most affluent religions. More than half of its 13.5 million members live outside the United States. * The Mormon flock is flourishing in Latin America, especially in Mexico and Brazil, with some 5.2 million members and 5,500 chapels. (from: http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE5150AK20090206 )
Re: Harry, Carly and the DREAM Act
Do I understand that Reid is attaching this to the Defense Reauthorization bill? For that reason alone, I would oppose it at this time. The idea's merits are worth serious consideration. To poke the thing in the Defense bill, which I believe comes up for a vote very soon, is to A) deny the time needed for serious consideration, and B) make a political ploy whereby anyone who votes against the bill because of this amendment (whether against it on the merits or against this particular manuever) will be castigated as not supporting the troops.
The fact that the initiative is being tucked into a bill where it has no place leads me to wonder why Senator Reid doesn't want to debate the measure, and brings into question the actual merits of the thing in my mind at least. Contemptible exercise in raw political gamesmanship, using the Armed Forces as pawns. Reid should be ashamed, but I understand there is a rare medical condition whereby the shame gene is dormant, if not missing entirely.
Jul '10
Re: Harry, Carly and the DREAM Act
Diane Ellis, Ed.
Kenneth:
So, as I understand it, the act proposes to reward those young people who managed to successfully break the law for an extended period, while living off the American taxpayer - as opposed to, say, their less savvy counterparts who only managed to break the law for some lesser period of time.
Do I have that right?
I don't think that's a fair characterization. What if your parents came here illegally when you were a baby, and you've grown up in the States your whole life? You'd punish a person with that circumstance? It doesn't seem just. · Sep 14 at 4:47pm
My grandparents came, as so many people's did, legally. They suffered and struggled for it.
My wife came legally. And after ten years of considerable expense and bureaucratic bungling, took her oath of naturalization. And when I witnessed that, I openly wept, because citizenship is a great pride and great privilege.
To see law-breakers waltz right in and be handed that prize and that privilege as a mere bauble infuriates me.
Jul '10
Re: Harry, Carly and the DREAM Act
Diane Ellis, Ed.
Kenneth:
So, as I understand it, the act proposes to reward those young people who managed to successfully break the law for an extended period, while living off the American taxpayer - as opposed to, say, their less savvy counterparts who only managed to break the law for some lesser period of time.
Do I have that right?
I don't think that's a fair characterization. What if your parents came here illegally when you were a baby, and you've grown up in the States your whole life? You'd punish a person with that circumstance? It doesn't seem just. · Sep 14 at 4:47pm
Well, then, let's agree that a free education and free school breakfasts and lunches for 12 years at the expense of the taxpayers of the United States of America is far more than fair recompense for the tragedy of being asked to reside elsewhere.
The idea that 5.7 billion people are being "punished" by not living in America might surprise a good many of them.
May '10
Re: Harry, Carly and the DREAM Act
So we're going to amend the immigration laws we have no intention of enforcing? That's just peachy.
May '10
Re: Harry, Carly and the DREAM Act
My mother also came legally, with all that entailed, in 1954. To say she resents the present situation is putting it mildly.
Re: Harry, Carly and the DREAM Act
Dave Carter: Do I understand that Reid is attaching this to the Defense Reauthorization bill? For that reason alone, I would oppose it at this time. The idea's merits are worth serious consideration. To poke the thing in the Defense bill, which I believe comes up for a vote very soon, is to A) deny the time needed for serious consideration, and B) make a political ploy whereby anyone who votes against the bill because of this amendment...
The fact that the initiative is being tucked into a bill where it has no place leads me to wonder why Senator Reid doesn't want to debate the measure, and brings into question the actual merits of the thing in my mind at least.
What you say here strikes me as a very reasonable position to hold. I believe the initiative still has to be debated and will come before a Senate vote before it can be added as an amendment to the defense bill. Ostensibly, the initiative is being tacked onto the defense bill because it tangentially relates to defense (i.e. service in the armed forces meets one of the conditions that the bill lays out).
Re: Harry, Carly and the DREAM Act
Kenneth
My grandparents came, as so many people's did, legally. They suffered and struggled for it.
My wife came legally.
mesquito: My mother also came legally, with all that entailed, in 1954. To say she resents the present situation is putting it mildly. · Sep 14 at 5:40pm
That's great, but isn't that beside the point? I'm not aware of other laws on the books that require minors to pay retribution for the crimes of their parents. Sending a 17 year old (or a 25 year old, for that matter) "back" to a country they never knew as punishment for their parents' violation of an unenforced law seems wrong.
May '10
Re: Harry, Carly and the DREAM Act
Okay, Diane Ellis. But I'll offer this amendment: illegal immigrats may not beneift from affirmative action advantages in college admissions. See how perverse this can get?
Re: Harry, Carly and the DREAM Act
mesquito: Okay, Diane Ellis. But I'll offer this amendment: illegal immigrats may not beneift from affirmative action advantages in college admissions. See how perverse this can get? · Sep 14 at 5:58pm
We have a deal, mesquito!
May '10
Re: Harry, Carly and the DREAM Act
You must be referring to some of Dave Carter's less accomplished colleagues who can't make a delivery on time.
Diane, I am with you on the idea that children shouldn't be punished for their parents' illegal act. Being uprooted by the force of government from a place you've lived your entire life, made all your friends, had jobs, learned the language, and deported to a country you might not remember at all, might not know the language, have no friends in, and have never held a job in, is terribly disruptive and definitely seems un-American.
But we also shouldn't reward the parents' illegal act by allowing it to benefit their children. This is not an easy balance to find.
Aug '10
Re: Harry, Carly and the DREAM Act
Diane Ellis, Ed.
That's great, but isn't that beside the point? I'm not aware of other laws on the books that require minors to pay retribution for the crimes of their parents. Sending a 17 year old (or a 25 year old, for that matter) "back" to a country they never knew as punishment for their parents' violation of an unenforced law seems wrong.
This is what bugs me, too. Infants don't get any say when their parents cross a border illegally, nor can they help it if the country they enter into illegally doesn't get around to catching them for decades.
The traditional interpretation of "Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin" is that children should not be punished for their parents' crimes, period, whether by death penalty or otherwise.
On the other hand, children are effectively punished for their parents' bad decisions all the time. Children of felons lose their parents to jail, children of derelicts, drug addicts, etc, do suffer for their parents' misbehavior... Some punishment for parental crimes can't be helped.
Jul '10
Re: Harry, Carly and the DREAM Act
Diane Ellis, Ed.
We have a deal, mesquito! · Sep 14 at 6:07pm
Alright, Diane, but only because your empathy touches my cold heart
Amend the bill:
To require the beneficiaries to serve four years in the military, or, if unfit to serve, to give two years of some alternative type of voluntary service plus a substantial fine.
To bar beneficiaries from sponsoring any relatives for legal residence or citizenship.
They're still way ahead of the deal, since educating and feeding them K-12 must have cost at least $100,000 each.
And we'll call it the Diane Ellis Dream Act.
Edited on Sep 14, 2010 at 6:45pmJul '10
Re: Harry, Carly and the DREAM Act
etoiledunord
This may have something to do with Orin Hatch's devotion to the DREAM act:
Feb 5, 2009 - (Reuters) - Mormonism is growing in Latin America where new members are attracted by such factors as the church's affluence and stability, as well as its family image and the belief that Jesus Christ visited the Americas after he was resurrected. The following are facts about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, as the Mormon church is formally called: * The once-isolated group, based in Salt Lake City, Utah, is one of the fastest-growing and most affluent religions. More than half of its 13.5 million members live outside the United States. * The Mormon flock is flourishing in Latin America, especially in Mexico and Brazil, with some 5.2 million members and 5,500 chapels. (from: http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE5150AK20090206 ) · Sep 14 at 4:54pm
Boy, you sure know how to get my goat. I never thought of that.
Sep '10
Re: Harry, Carly and the DREAM Act
It's my experience that compassion for illegals is a slippery slope. I hope you'll get further onto it.
Sep '10
Re: Harry, Carly and the DREAM Act
Kenneth
Diane Ellis, Ed.
Well, then, let's agree that a free education and free school breakfasts and lunches for 12 years at the expense of the taxpayers of the United States of America is far more than fair recompense for the tragedy of being asked to reside elsewhere.
The idea that 5.7 billion people are being "punished" by not living in America might surprise a good many of them. · Sep 14 at 5:07pm
You say "Well, then, let's agree that a free education and free school breakfasts and lunches for 12 years at the expense of the taxpayers of the United States of America ---"
Since illegals pay taxes, this is untrue to a significant extent.