Hall Of Fame Voting And The Steroid Standard
Sports writer Bob Klapisch has a column I can't quite get behind on account of how he's not voting for the great Jack Morris. But he raises some interesting questions about how we'll vote now that those who played during the steroid era are in contention:
Next year, however, the election process dissolves into chaos when the referendum on steroids arrives with the class of 2013, which includes Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Sammy Sosa, Mike Piazza, Craig Biggio and Curt Schilling.
Good luck to anyone trying to make sense of the ballot’s hazy instructions, which urges voters to consider a candidate’s “character.” But, how, exactly does that apply to the juicers?
Punish the ones who openly admitted to cheating? No forgiveness for them?
How about the ones who were suspected but never caught or, for that matter, not even mentioned in the Mitchell Report? Obviously it’s a messy science, although some have suggested a black-and-white solution: Either let them all in, or banish them all to purgatory, convicts and suspects alike.
I'd add a question about whether post-injury or post-surgery steroid use is acceptable. I'm curious what the sense of the Ricochet house is on steroid use.
Of course, we could all make this next year's balloting easier by just letting Jack Morris in already. And I can't stand the Twins! Or the Tigers! I did meet Morris in a Seattle bar once, on the first day of a baseball trip I did with a friend. We talked about steroids and Hall of Fame voting.
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Apr '11
Re: Hall Of Fame Voting And The Steroid Standard
And then there's this.
That's gotta be a disappointment for the big Russian.
Jul '10
Re: Hall Of Fame Voting And The Steroid Standard
EJHill: Glenn - I disagree with your last sentiment. For all their flaws I think all of BBWA members are very serious about their role in electing members of the Hall. And most of them are happy to share their ballot and their reasoning with their readers.
As for what numbers qualify for admission, writers don't compare apples and oranges. Shortstops and catchers are not required to have the same numbers as a first baseman or outfielders because of the physical demands of their defensive positions.
As we begin the steroid era of retired players, they should be seen for what they were: cheaters.
Now that Larkin is in the Veterans Committee needs to rectify another injustice, namely putting his predecessor in the Hall with him. For 40 years the Reds had just two shortstops and they both should be in. · Jan 10 at 10:27am
This is the entire problem with letting Larkin in, now we downgrade the bar to include the next guy just below him with similar stats. There are a number of entries who really shouldn't have gotten in except they came up in a ballot year where there was no one else to induct.
Edit: There's no way Morris should get in before Tommy John (288 wins, 3.34 ERA, and one surgery that changed baseball).
Edited on January 10, 2012 at 7:49pmApr '11
Re: Hall Of Fame Voting And The Steroid Standard
EJHill: Glenn - I disagree with your last sentiment. For all their flaws I think all of BBWA members are very serious about their role in electing members of the Hall. And most of them are happy to share their ballot and their reasoning with their readers.
EJ - Yeah, I take your point. I can drag out a couple examples to prove I'm technically correct (Willie Mays - I mean, c'mon: Willie Freakin' Mays got only 95% of the vote?!), but I stand corrected. No insult was intended.
Re: Hall Of Fame Voting And The Steroid Standard
Cobalt Blue: Can't stand the Twins? C'mon! Kirby Puckett was an inspiration and that '91 series was spectacular.
With respect to steroid use, I'd favor the Morris "automatic disqualification" route. This steroid era has nearly ruined the game - purge all of the juicers and honor the players that actually understand sportsmanship. If Pete Rose is disqualified for being stupid, don't reward much more corrosive behavior. · Jan 10 at 9:42am
Edited on Jan 10 at 09:43 am
You remember I'm a St. Louis Cardinals fan, right? 1987 wasn't that long ago, in my mind!
Jul '11
Re: Hall Of Fame Voting And The Steroid Standard
Mollie Hemingway, Ed.
Cobalt Blue: Can't stand the Twins? C'mon! Kirby Puckett was an inspiration and that '91 series was spectacular.
With respect to steroid use, I'd favor the Morris "automatic disqualification" route. This steroid era has nearly ruined the game - purge all of the juicers and honor the players that actually understand sportsmanship. If Pete Rose is disqualified for being stupid, don't reward much more corrosive behavior. · Jan 10 at 9:42am
Edited on Jan 10 at 09:43 am
You remember I'm a St. Louis Cardinals fan, right? 1987 wasn't that long ago, in my mind! · Jan 10 at 11:05am
Ouch! To be honest, I did not remember that. I understand now; some injuries never heal completely (but the '87 Steries is the only one I've ever been to - I loved Tom Kelly's team of Puckett, Viola, Hrbek, Gaetti, et al ... if the Twins had lost Game 7 that year, I'd still have a grudge against St. Louis).
May '10
Re: Hall Of Fame Voting And The Steroid Standard
Actually, there is a case to be made that Frank Jobe, MD should be in the Hall. No one off the field has changed the game more than he has.
Sep '11
Re: Hall Of Fame Voting And The Steroid Standard
Charlotte: A documentary about steroids called Bigger Stronger Faster came out a few years ago. It is fascinating in that it doesn't shy away from the fact that steroids really work, and it refuses to come down squarely for or against. It is difficult to draw the line because there is such a huge gray area once humans start doing supposedly "unnatural" things to their bodies. Most people probably agree that "traditional" anabolic steroids should be banned, but how about human growth hormone? Blood doping? Greenies? Energy drinks? Lasik eye surgery? Tommy John surgery?
It's not at all obvious to me what the right answer is. · Jan 10 at 10:29am
Charlotte mentions an interesting issue that often gets me into trouble with friends. How do we distinguish rationally between those performance-enhancing activities all thoughtful folks proscribe (anabolic steroid use) and other activities that improve an athlete's performance but are more acceptable (Tommy John surgery)? I personally am ambivalent - sometimes I say, "Let them all in," and sometimes, "We can't reward bad behavior, and we should distinguish between lasik surgery and steroids, so keep the known cheaters out." I'm a logical mess.
Jul '11
Re: Hall Of Fame Voting And The Steroid Standard
So which is better of these three. A hall that admits liars and excludes proven users or a hall that excludes both proven and rumored users or a hall that admits all of them with an asterisk?
Jul '10
Re: Hall Of Fame Voting And The Steroid Standard
EJHill
Actually, there is a case to be made that Frank Jobe, MD should be in the Hall. No one off the field has changed the game more than he has. · Jan 10 at 11:24am
I would be behind that 100%. Add in a note for Lewis Yocum and James Andrews and induct them as a group for their contributions to baseball.
May '10
Re: Hall Of Fame Voting And The Steroid Standard
You don't do this in the weight room:
Jul '10
Re: Hall Of Fame Voting And The Steroid Standard
EJHill: You don't do this in the weight room: · Jan 10 at 11:44am
I did that with a weekend of Taco Bell and Guinness once.
But seriously, I think the steroids era hurts the power hitters more than anyone, and specifically Bonds, Sosa, and McGwire. I'm of a mind to let them in (with Rose and Shoeless Joe), but put a large asterisk or disclaimer on their plaques explaining why they were questionable entries. It's not like we can pretend they didn't exist, but we shouldn't pretend they were exemplary figures either.
Aug '10
Re: Hall Of Fame Voting And The Steroid Standard
As Bill Madden pointed out in 2010 the banning of Amphetamines had more effect in reducing power numbers of hitters than the banning of Steroids. The books "The Long Season" and "Ball Four" discuss the rampant use of Amphetamines during the "classic" era of Baseball. Willie Mays supposedly had liquid Amphetamine in his locker during his career.
There is no "PED free" era of Baseball. The use of PEDs isn't "cheating," it is a practice in self-destruction for short term gain. If there were no harmful side effects to Steroids and Amphetamines, then everyone would be using them as supplements. Heck, they'd be in our drinking water like Fluoride. Creatine has minor performance enhancing effects, and aids in recovery, and it is legal. ADHD medication is legal, and has performance enhancing effects. Caffeine and Nicotine increase performance.
The only reason we ban PEDs is because they are harmful to the athlete and present a dire risk for young child athletes who might mirror behavior and kill themselves to be like the pros. That is the only reason. That's it.
Stop thinking the past "was innocent." Hank Aaron, Willie Mays, amphetamines? Likely.
Re: Hall Of Fame Voting And The Steroid Standard
I like how old timey baseball players did the opposite of PED. Player Retarding Drugs. Like Babe Ruth drunkenly pitching and running bases. Now that's a good ball player.
Jul '10
Re: Hall Of Fame Voting And The Steroid Standard
Dock Ellis once threw a no-hitter tripping on LSD.
Mar '11
Re: Hall Of Fame Voting And The Steroid Standard
Can't do this in a weight room either:
Jul '11
Re: Hall Of Fame Voting And The Steroid Standard
I got a buddy who's a Cy Young winner who knows a million skeletons. I'm not going to out his statements to me but the majority were using PED's for decades. Many of those stopped when it was illegal but others took their lessens from the feel good lying culture we have and kept it going. He did not use and resents those who did.
Casey, what if a beer keg and prime rib training program was outlawed? Worked for the bambino it seems.
May '11
Re: Hall Of Fame Voting And The Steroid Standard
Does anybody not think the NFL Hall of Fame is loaded with players that did steroids? NFL players keep getting bigger and stronger. They're not taking PEDs? Why does everybody get religion about PEDs in baseball but turn their heads when it comes to PEDs in other sports. What's disturbing is sports writers not voting for Jeff Bagwell because they suspect he took steroids. No real evidence that he took PEDS except he was muscular. What happened to due process?
If Jack Morris played for the Yankees he'd be in the Hall. Every voter should be forced to watch his game 7 10 inning masterpiece against the Atlanta Braves in 1991. He was also supposedly cantakerous towards the media during his career. Many sportswriters are petty. If you need a pitcher for a game 7 ot the world series Jack Morris would be close to the top of the list of guys I'd want on the bump. I hope Morris and Schilling are enshrined next year. Both were clutch.
Edited on January 10, 2012 at 10:25pmJul '10
Re: Hall Of Fame Voting And The Steroid Standard
You are spot on with this. If baseball players can't get this big without steroids, football players can't either. There was a picture during McGwire's prime in St Louis comparing him side by side with Bryce Paup who was a middle linebacker for the Bills. The had virtually identical physiques, same height, same weight. McGwire was gargantuan for a baseball player, but Paup wasn't out of line with most large linebackers/defensive ends. Interior lineman (offensive and defensive) are bigger than that, yet not a peep?
Mar '11
Re: Hall Of Fame Voting And The Steroid Standard
Then I would cease to be an athlete.
May '10
Re: Hall Of Fame Voting And The Steroid Standard
Mickey Mantle once showed up to a game drunk off his gourd and still hit a home run. He ran straight past first base on his home run trot and the first base coach had to point him toward second. That's skill, folks.