Good News Only Day: Incest is Still Illegal in Germany
Just when you thought the world could not get any more degraded and perverse, the European Court of Human rights--believe it or not!--proves you wrong. Germany's ban on incest has been upheld:
A brother and sister from Germany who had an incestuous relationship, arguing they had the right to a family life, have lost their European court case.
Patrick Stuebing and Susan Karolewski had four children together, two of whom are described as disabled.
The European Court of Human Rights said Germany was entitled to ban incest.
I suppose it's bad news that this could be news at all, but today is glass-half-full day.
I'll spare you the photo of the couple on the grounds that the very idea of this is so disgusting as to inherently violate the spirit of the Code of Conduct. Click on the link at your own discretion.
- Comment (45)
- · Quote
- · UnfollowFollow (3)
Comments:
Mar '11
Re: Good News Only Day: Incest is Still Illegal in Germany
Joseph Eagar
It's not the same at all. Incest is incest, whether it's heterosexual or homosexual couples. There's no moral link between homosexuality and incest. · 4 minutes ago
And homosexuality is homosexuality, whether it's incestuous couples or non-incestuous couples. If non-incestuous homosexuals cannot be denied the right to express their love through marriage, on what basis would you deny that same right to incestuous homosexuals, especially since there is no question of adverse genetic impact involved?
Oct '10
Re: Good News Only Day: Incest is Still Illegal in Germany
Basil Fawlty
Joseph Eagar
It's not the same at all. Incest is incest, whether it's heterosexual or homosexual couples. There's no moral link between homosexuality and incest. · 4 minutes ago
And homosexuality is homosexuality, whether it's incestuous couples or non-incestuous couples. If non-incestuous homosexuals cannot be denied the right to express their love through marriage, on what basis would you deny that same right to incestuous homosexuals, especially since there is no question of adverse genetic impact involved? · 1 minute ago
I admit, I don't have an answer to that question.
Apr '11
Re: Good News Only Day: Incest is Still Illegal in Germany
Basil Fawlty
Valiuth
Claire Berlinski, Ed.
Incest is different than homosexulaity. · 6 minutes ago
Your argument would be stronger if you would explain why you feel this way. · 41 minutes ago
Well I'll try. Incest to me seems like pure partner selection. Thus a person engaging in incest can choose another suitable partner. I don't think there is any evidence to prove that people who engage in incest are incapable of being aroused by people who are not siblings. Homosexuality on the other hand are only aroused in one way (excluding any kind of sexuality gradients). I think the specificity of incest is what makes it different. Homosexuality is too broad of a phenotype, incest is very narrow.
Equating the two to me is like saying Vertebrates are the same things as Fish.
Sep '10
Re: Good News Only Day: Incest is Still Illegal in Germany
Joseph Eagar
It's not the same at all. Incest is incest, whether it's heterosexual or homosexual couples. There's no moral link between homosexuality and incest. · 14 minutes ago
The arguments in favor of legal recognition are often the same. That is the issue.
Posted in Peter Robinson's 100+ comment thread yesterday by member Valiuth:
Mar '11
Re: Good News Only Day: Incest is Still Illegal in Germany
Valiuth
Basil Fawlty
Valiuth
Claire Berlinski, Ed.
Incest is different than homosexulaity. · 6 minutes ago
Your argument would be stronger if you would explain why you feel this way. · 41 minutes ago
Well I'll try. Incest to me seems like pure partner selection. Thus a person engaging in incest can choose another suitable partner. I don't think there is any evidence to prove that people who engage in incest are incapable of being aroused by people who are not siblings. Homosexuality on the other hand are only aroused in one way (excluding any kind of sexuality gradients). I think the specificity of incest is what makes it different. Homosexuality is too broad of a phenotype, incest is very narrow.
Equating the two to me is like saying Vertebrates are the same things as Fish. · 1 minute ago
Interesting distinction, although I don't think there is any evidence that people who engage in homosexual behavior are incapable of being aroused by members of the opposite sex. But this still leaves unanswered the question of why, absent an adverse genetic impact, one's choice to marry a sibling or a parent should be legally proscribed.
Apr '11
Re: Good News Only Day: Incest is Still Illegal in Germany
Mark Belling Fan
Joseph Eagar
It's not the same at all. Incest is incest, whether it's heterosexual or homosexual couples. There's no moral link between homosexuality and incest. ·
Theargumentsin favor of legal recognition are often the same. That is the issue.
For many people who think the argument against is "yuck", the argument against will be the same, too. Both arguments also apply to the question of whether Elizabeth Warren should be allowed to have sex with, or marry, anyone.
The additional argument that members of consanguineous couples could be aroused by other people strikes me as a terrible one, though. The list of women that I could potentially be aroused by is a long one, but being told I could not marry my wife would have been a very great burden indeed. Even her magnificent arousal related qualities are probably less important than other aspects of love.
Re: Good News Only Day: Incest is Still Illegal in Germany
Basil Fawlty
But this still leaves unanswered the question of why, absent an adverse genetic impact, one's choice to marry a sibling or a parent should be legally proscribed. · 38 minutes ag
o
Basil, I like a good argument as much as the next woman, but come on. For some things--incest, cannibalism, and poking out one's own eyeballs with a pair of chopsticks, say--yuck is quite sufficient.
Feb '12
Re: Good News Only Day: Incest is Still Illegal in Germany
And the increase is the odds isn't all *that* much higher. From slate.com: http://slate.me/JdqPW7
So long as fertile women in their forties and fifties are allowed to get married, there isn't a scientific-based argument against consanguinity due to related birth defects.
Mar '11
Re: Good News Only Day: Incest is Still Illegal in Germany
Claire Berlinski, Ed.
Basil Fawlty
But this still leaves unanswered the question of why, absent an adverse genetic impact, one's choice to marry a sibling or a parent should be legally proscribed. · 38 minutes ag
o
Basil, I like a good argument as much as the next woman, but come on. For some things--incest, cannibalism, and poking out one's own eyeballs with a pair of chopsticks, say--yuckis quite sufficient. · 9 minutes ago
Gee, Claire. It seems like only yesterday that homosexuality shared that yuck factor. But the enlightened have moved beyond such irrational prejudice. You're on the wrong side of history on this one, I fear.
Apr '11
Re: Good News Only Day: Incest is Still Illegal in Germany
Claire Berlinski, Ed.
Basil Fawlty
But this still leaves unanswered the question of why, absent an adverse genetic impact, one's choice to marry a sibling or a parent should be legally proscribed. · 38 minutes ag
o
Basil, I like a good argument as much as the next woman, but come on. For some things--incest, cannibalism, and poking out one's own eyeballs with a pair of chopsticks, say--yuckis quite sufficient. · 8 minutes ago
Have you read Martha Nussbaum on disgust? She's released a variety of fairly similar books on the subject; I wouldn't recommend reading two of them, but I'd heartily recommend reading one of them. Foucault's Discipline and Punish also has some great stuff on this, but he's not so fun or so readable.
One problem with "yuck" is that so much of it is pure prejudice. As Eugene Volokh used to say, all kinds of heterosexual sexual acts have all the indicia of disgust, from intercourse to full kisses, but we don't think them disgusting because we do them, or want to. Without clear limiting principles, "yuck" prejudices also tend to be a vehicle for other unrelated prejudices.
Apr '11
Re: Good News Only Day: Incest is Still Illegal in Germany
What about keeping the home and family a safe place without sexual tension? If a girl has to be on guard against sexual pursuit even from fathers and brothers and sisters, what have we done? Why do we have to reduce it to a scientific question of health and deformity?
Apr '11
Re: Good News Only Day: Incest is Still Illegal in Germany
Amy Schley
And the increase is the odds isn't all *that* much higher. From slate.com: http://slate.me/JdqPW7
....
So long as fertile women in their forties and fifties are allowed to get married, there isn't a scientific-based argument against consanguinity due to related birth defects. · 6 minutes ago
While I agree that eugenics are a fig leaf to justify prejudice here (and when the fig leaf is that repulsive, you've got to be a little concerned about what it hides), your logic here doesn't quite work out. It may be that while undesirable populations breeding and appealing middle aged people breeding carry the same cost, there is a societal benefit to permitting marriages to remain sexually active that is not present for the undesirable population.
To analogize, it is not necessarily irrational for me to avoid smoking on health grounds while going skiing when I can.
Apr '11
Re: Good News Only Day: Incest is Still Illegal in Germany
For what it's worth, this is what I believe to be almost universally recognized as the "correct" view of the incest prohibition. Volokh, Nussbaum, Foucault, Sullivan, Derrida, my Pride law professors; I can't think of a scholar on the subject who did not find this to be the justification that worked best.
Apparently the court in Strasbourg preferred to use eugenics as their basis. I'd really like it if someone could come up with an explanation for this that didn't reinforce prejudices, as I fear I shall irritate some German friends with this.
Sep '10
Re: Good News Only Day: Incest is Still Illegal in Germany
Isn't this an issue of age? We already outlaw Adult-Kid and Kid-Kid sexual activity, regardless of DNA, don't we?
Feb '12
Re: Good News Only Day: Incest is Still Illegal in Germany
James Of England
Amy Schley
And the increase is the odds isn't all *that* much higher. From slate.com: http://slate.me/JdqPW7
....
So long as fertile women in their forties and fifties are allowed to get married, there isn't a scientific-based argument against consanguinity due to related birth defects. · 6 minutes ago
While I agree that eugenics are a fig leaf to justify prejudice here (and when the fig leaf is that repulsive, you've got to be a little concerned about what it hides), your logic here doesn't quite work out. It may be that while undesirable populations breeding and appealing middle aged people breeding carry the same cost, there is a societal benefit to permitting marriages to remain sexually active that is not present for the undesirable population.
That was rather my point. The judgment that middle age couples possibly having handicapped children is better than siblings doing so is a *societal* one, not a scientific one.
Apr '11
Re: Good News Only Day: Incest is Still Illegal in Germany
In other good news it is still illegal in Germany to give your child a dumb name like 'Sweater' or 'Moonpie'. It must be possible to determine the gender of the child by the first name and product names are strictly verboten.
Apr '11
Re: Good News Only Day: Incest is Still Illegal in Germany
Basil Fawlty
Interesting distinction, although I don't think there is any evidence that people who engage in homosexual behavior are incapable of being aroused by members of the opposite sex. But this still leaves unanswered the question of why, absent an adverse genetic impact, one's choice to marry a sibling or a parent should be legally proscribed. · 2 hours ago
Well I thought the view was that people have sort of a gradient of arousal. So different people are aroused sexually to varying degrees by each gender. But, you are right that has little baring on why they should be prohibited from marriage...I think under the rubric of consensual love as Mark quotes me above there are no strong arguments against it. Only the "Yuck factor" is very strong, but what is the explanation?
It would seem to be a built in reflex then, like a gag reflex. So we prohibit by law things that instinctively disgust us. The problem is sometimes there are no seemingly rational reasons for why we feel disgust. It could be cultural, but it could also be genetically innate. Probably a mix like all things.
We have to draw lines somewhere.
Nov '10
Re: Good News Only Day: Incest is Still Illegal in Germany
Charlotte
May I suggest a portmanteau: photoshopportunities. · 3 hours ago
It will give you more room before you hit the word limit, too.
Nov '11
Re: Good News Only Day: Incest is Still Illegal in Germany
Mark Belling Fan
Isn't this an issue of age? We already outlaw Adult-Kid and Kid-Kid sexual activity, regardless of DNA, don't we? · 44 minutes ago
Bingo - the issue here is consensual, adult incest. Why prohibit it? If the incestuous couple is heterosexual, just make it a requirement of their relationship that one of them is sterilized. This is the Brave New World our grandchildren will be living in, we'd better get with the times.
Apr '11
Re: Good News Only Day: Incest is Still Illegal in Germany
Mark Belling Fan
Isn't this an issue of age? We already outlaw Adult-Kid and Kid-Kid sexual activity, regardless of DNA, don't we? · 2 hours ago
In most US jurisdictions, the age of majority is older than the age of consent. That, and there's a impact to changing "we can't, yet" to "we can't", even for behavior that takes place before the permissions change. I think that cousin couples probably have the better side of the civil rights argument, but prohibiting sexual parental relationships seems worth it to me.