Gentlemen Don’t Wrestle With Ladies
Big, big Hat Tip to Joe Carter over at First Things blog for this one. I'm curious what Ricochet members think about male versus female competitions in combat or contact sports?
“Wrestling is a combat sport and it can get violent at times. As a matter of conscience and my faith I do not believe that it is appropriate for a boy to engage a girl in this manner. It is unfortunate that I have been placed in a situation not seen in most other high school sports in Iowa.”
Rather than wrestle a girl, the wrestler in question chose to forfeit the match and end a strong possibility of a state championship for himself. Please read the whole article. Neither set of parents or child is bitter, and the boy in question had nothing but praise for his female opponent. But, in his mind, this was a question of honor.
- Comment (49)
- · Quote
- · UnfollowFollow (5)
Comments:
Jun '10
Re: Gentlemen Don’t Wrestle With Ladies
I was challenged by a female colleague at school to a bout of SCA style combat. I took her blows like a man and refused to return them. When she attempted to bait me, I concluded she had crossed the line of chivalry. So I grabbed her weapon, turned her around, and gave the wench proper spanking.
Oct '10
Re: Gentlemen Don’t Wrestle With Ladies
Have you ever asked a mother how she copes with her child away in combat? Of the terror that grips her heart on one of those long sleepless nights? Of the longing she has to see, to touch, to hold, to hug, to laugh with, to talk with and to simply be with her loved one if only for moment?
Imagine now that you are that mother’s child, thousands of miles from home, sunburned, dehydrated, tired, lonely, filthy, insect infested and coping with the horrendous experiences of war. Your letters are your only contact with the ‘world’, your home, your loved ones. When, if, will I ever see it again.
It’s 3 AM, a listening post, outside the wire; you’re there with your sleeping partner when all hell breaks loose down in the valley below. The close air support is screaming overhead, the mortars are exploding and the red and green tracers cross through the blackened skies.
The last letter was a week ago, where is she now? Is that her? Is she alright? The fear clamps your heart with its steely grip. Your eyes well up and your heart beats wildly.
The sapper slips up unseen…
Nov '10
Re: Gentlemen Don’t Wrestle With Ladies
katievs
Elizabeth Dunn: It is ludicrous that Joel Northrup was put in that situation to begin with! School administrators, parents, PTA, anyone?
Athletic competition between the sexes can only result in a compromised competitive spirit. Male athletes would be restrained from bringing on their best game and female athletes would never get the opportunity to show their best stuff. I adore Geno Auriemma's Huskies and Mike K's Blue Devils, but would never want to see a matchup between the two teams.
Vive la difference! · Feb 24 at 5:19pm
Agree on all points, ED--except that I've never heard of the huskies or Blue Devils. · Feb 24 at 5:43pm
katievs,
Connecticut Huskies- the finest collegiate women's basketball program ever; produced many Olympians and members of the WNBA; broke too many NCAA records to recount on this post.
Duke Blue Devils- one of the most revered, consistently excellent collegiate men's basketball programs in history. Two words: Mike Krzyzewski.
Edited on February 25, 2011 at 3:57amAug '10
Re: Gentlemen Don’t Wrestle With Ladies
Even if you don't accept the idea that sports are intrinsically more important to boys than to girls, and that this has important evolutionary reasons, you at least have to admit that boys and girls, or men and women, have abilities that fall under two very different bell curves. If they are required to play sports with (or against) each other, then there will be very few girls who make the grade (after puberty). Separating them gives each sex the opportunity to compete under their own bell curve, so actually promotes equal opportunity to play.
Dec '10
Re: Gentlemen Don’t Wrestle With Ladies
HalifaxCB
As for the second, who is defining oneself completely? One must have courage to investigate how far one's own free will can take one; it's cowardice akin to sharia to refuse people the opportunity to do so.
· Feb 24 at 10:17am
So... If this kid doesn't want to wrestle a female, he's a coward? Not just a coward, but one who displays a cowardice akin to sharia?
Let's not let the kid forfeit. Let's just lock him up! The Neanderthal.
May '10
Re: Gentlemen Don’t Wrestle With Ladies
We tend to think that because men are about 10% bigger than women they might be 10% stronger. I think I read somewhere that men on average have twice as much upper-body strength as women. I don't know how this translates to people who are the same approximate size as in wrestling weight classes. The narrowness of boxing weight classes suggests that even very small differences in body size render matches uninteresting, so such competition is avoided.
Feb '11
Re: Gentlemen Don’t Wrestle With Ladies
" But, in his mind, this was a question of honor."
Good for him, for showing respect for his opponent and himself. It's refreshing to hear a young person thinking about another's welfare even though it meant a loss for him. His parents must be proud.
Re: Gentlemen Don’t Wrestle With Ladies
Well, of course, as the registered Ricochet sexist, I'm with this kid entirely. I also had to spar with ladies while training for karate. The one time, in the heat of battle, I lost control and really slugged one, her eyes filled with tears, and I was awake all night, absolutely heartsore.
Do we really want our sons learning to overcome their instinct to protect women? Because - and I say this in the most sexist way imaginable - if they don't, who will?
May '10
Re: Gentlemen Don’t Wrestle With Ladies
The leftist project of leveling proceeds apace, consequences be damned.
If Mr. Northrup had wrestled Ms. Herkelman, for him there would only have been two possible outcomes, both bad: he could defeat his female opponent and thus become an ungentlemanly brute who takes advantage of weaker opponents, or he could have been defeated by her and be shorn of his masculinity in front of his peers, not an insignificant price to pay by young man at that stage in life.
The women's movement, it seems to me, lost it's way when it abandoned femininity in favor of making claims on what were seen as male realms. A more masculine woman is not necessarily a more equal woman.
Go join the women's team, Ms. Herkelman.
Nov '10
Re: Gentlemen Don’t Wrestle With Ladies
Andrew Klavan:
Do we really want our sons learning to overcome their instinct to protect women?
No.
Jul '10
Re: Gentlemen Don’t Wrestle With Ladies
It is difficult enough to stand for ones principles in a society whose pull gravitates towards ever more permissiveness. That this young man was willing to do so at personal cost makes it even more impressive.
Oct '10
Re: Gentlemen Don’t Wrestle With Ladies
Elizabeth Dunn
Andrew Klavan:
Do we really want our sons learning to overcome their instinct to protect women?
No. · Feb 24 at 6:47pm
Allow me to second this. There is a direct correlation between the coarsening of our culture and the decline of chivalry.
Jun '10
Re: Gentlemen Don’t Wrestle With Ladies
"Also, Claire spends a lot of time fighting/sparring (?) men in her sport of choice."
I'm assuming she is not doing this on a professional level, correct? Fun & fitness is the goal? Then competing with or against guys is fine. There are plenty of co-ed opportunities for adults. They can be loads of fun. It's totally different when high school kids are competing for championships that mean a great deal more than which beer league softbal team comes in first.
Jul '10
Re: Gentlemen Don’t Wrestle With Ladies
StickerShock: "Also, Claire spends a lot of time fighting/sparring (?) men in her sport of choice."
I'm assuming she is not doing this on a professional level, correct? Fun & fitness is the goal? Then competing with or against guys is fine. There are plenty of co-ed opportunities for adults. They can be loads of fun. It's totally different when high school kids are competing for championships that mean a great deal more than which beer league softbal team comes in first. · Feb 24 at 6:59pm
In the beer league softball teams I played on, it was generally frowned upon when a guy did something like sliding hard into second and taking out the 2nd baseman (which normally is applauded as a good, hard-nosed play) when he took out a girl playing second.
Jan '11
Re: Gentlemen Don’t Wrestle With Ladies
Whiskey Sam
In the beer league softball teams I played on, it was generally frowned upon when a guy did something like sliding hard into second and taking out the 2nd baseman (which normally is applauded as a good, hard-nosed play) when he took out a girl playing second. · Feb 24 at 7:22pm
I've only known one guy in my life who did stuff like that. I was not the least bit surprised to find out he was a jerk off the field too.
On the Ladder of Cultural Intangibles, 'treating women right' ranks up there next to literature and over the celebration of sports. Women are the force in the lives of men that civilise the society. I pray to never see the day when we de-womanize women and make them no better than us.
On the other hand, co-ed wrestling must make for an absolutely great mixing event, don't you think? Completely dispenses with all the games and formalities...
Re: Gentlemen Don’t Wrestle With Ladies
Absolutely. Women are hard-wired to protect children and men are hard-wired to protect women. Why in the world would you train a man to hurt a woman?
If Rob Long had to take two hours of sexual harassment training just to teach a course at USC, think of the reeducation our desensitized gender-neutral wrestlers would have to go through after graduation.
Jul '10
Re: Gentlemen Don’t Wrestle With Ladies
fullfrontal
Whiskey Sam
In the beer league softball teams I played on, it was generally frowned upon when a guy did something like sliding hard into second and taking out the 2nd baseman (which normally is applauded as a good, hard-nosed play) when he took out a girl playing second. · Feb 24 at 7:22pm
I've only known one guy in my life who did stuff like that. I was not the least bit surprised to find out he was a jerk off the field too.
On the Ladder of Cultural Intangibles, 'treating women right' ranks up there next to literature and over the celebration of sports. Women are the force in the lives of men that civilise the society. I pray to never see the day when we de-womanize women and make them no better than us.
On the other hand, co-ed wrestling must make for an absolutely great mixing event, don't you think? Completely dispenses with all the games and formalities... · Feb 24 at 7:39pm
Co-ed wrestling was an intramural sport when I was in college, but it was absolutely not sanctioned by the NCAA.
Feb '11
Re: Gentlemen Don’t Wrestle With Ladies
I wrestled in HS in Ohio. A few points.
First: this girl must be pretty bad*ss if she was able to get 25 wins in Iowa. They have an excellent HS program. So good on her.
Second: like many people have said, a man should not engage with a woman in combat. it is not honorable and it is not correct. And yes I know (and train with) women who could beat the bejeezus out of me. It does not change the principle.
Third: This young man gives me hope for the future. No matter whether you agree or not, what a marvelous example of putting ethics and values above personal glory. He has trained *incredibly* hard to get where was. And because it was not (in his mind) the right thing to do he walked away from that.
Fourth: How refreshing (borderline miraculous) that *EVERYONE* in the story acted in such a high minded, decent and honorable fashion.
Feb '11
Re: Gentlemen Don’t Wrestle With Ladies
As I'm sick of gettin' whupped, I'd much prefer that women not be allowed to wrestle with us.
Jun '10
Re: Gentlemen Don’t Wrestle With Ladies
"Why in the world would you train a man to hurt a woman?"
Exactly. I would be ashamed of my son if he roughed up a girl on the opposing team, regardless of how well padded the hockey players are. It would be completely against his nature! Never hit a girl...never hit a girl....never hit a girl was drilled into his head by his dad & me. (That included his sister, who probably deserved to be hit on a few occasions.)
And when you play co-ed sports as an adult it is highly unusual for a guy to go full bore....they hold back because the nature of the co-ed leagues is toned-down a bit. Still competitive, but more of an emphasis on fun than dominating your opponent.