Gentlemen Don’t Wrestle With Ladies
Big, big Hat Tip to Joe Carter over at First Things blog for this one. I'm curious what Ricochet members think about male versus female competitions in combat or contact sports?
“Wrestling is a combat sport and it can get violent at times. As a matter of conscience and my faith I do not believe that it is appropriate for a boy to engage a girl in this manner. It is unfortunate that I have been placed in a situation not seen in most other high school sports in Iowa.”
Rather than wrestle a girl, the wrestler in question chose to forfeit the match and end a strong possibility of a state championship for himself. Please read the whole article. Neither set of parents or child is bitter, and the boy in question had nothing but praise for his female opponent. But, in his mind, this was a question of honor.
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Comments:
Nov '10
Re: Gentlemen Don’t Wrestle With Ladies
I don't see a whole lot of honor in treating people by the accidents of their birth - i.e. gender, race, etc. - rather than on the basis of their individual abilities and accomplishments.
May '10
Re: Gentlemen Don’t Wrestle With Ladies
Wrestlers grapple. They put their hands all over each other and have their bodies pressed tightly together. The notion that a gentleman should be comfortable wrestling a girl is absurd.
If one is going to deny the existence of innate roles, boxing would be the better fighting sport. But boys tend to have more upper body strength and testosterone-fueled violent instincts, so even then an even match would be rare.
My sisters who have played soccer their entire lives have stated many times that men and women play soccer differently... and that men are generally better. They and their soccer friends have played with men dozens of times.
If a girl can't find other girls willing to box or wrestle her, well, tough cookies.
I like this bit:
... if I embrace the idea of a gentleman, I am simultaneously embracing the idea of a lady. Doing so must appear, through the caustic lens of liberation, to be suggesting that ladies and gentlemen are substantially different and that a gentleman treats other gentleman in ways markedly different from the way he treats ladies. Precisely.
Our complementarity is part of the nobility of our design.
Re: Gentlemen Don’t Wrestle With Ladies
Throughout middle school and high school I trained in Tae Kwon Do and cross-trained in Jiu Jitsu. The former required that I spar with boys much taller and heavier than I because there were simply not enough girls with whom I could practice. And the latter required that I grapple on the ground with boys, who again, were often much bigger. At first, being partnered with boys in Jiu Jitsu was awkward, but it made me a better fighter than I would have been otherwise, and contributed to a basic knowledge of self-defense.
Edited on February 24, 2011 at 6:49pmMay '10
Re: Gentlemen Don’t Wrestle With Ladies
That you had no say in determining your sex does not mean it was an accident.
Free will is a key aspect of humanity. It is not, however, unlimited. Attempting to define oneself completely is a futile and pitiable exercise.
Dec '10
Re: Gentlemen Don’t Wrestle With Ladies
Diane, I too studied Jiu Jitsu and Shaolin Kempo (forgive me if the spelling is off, it has been many years) and I often had to spar and train with the girls in my class. Sometimes I was better than they were, sometimes they were better than me. There were no problems training and developing with either sex.
That being said, if we had gone to the point of applying realistic physical contact, I can see there being an issue. Sparing and training are fine, but I wouldn't have been comfortable hitting the girls in the same manner as I would a boy.
This isn't to say that some of the girls wouldn't have kicked my butt in a fight, but a man does not hit a girl. Period.
Edited on February 24, 2011 at 7:00pmSep '10
Re: Gentlemen Don’t Wrestle With Ladies
I wrestled a girl my freshman year in high school. I won by technical fall (i.e. mercy rule) before the end of the first period. I could have won by fall in the first ten seconds of the match, but didn't feel comfortable pinning a girl. It was awkward enough shooting takedowns on a girl.
I don't think girls should be wrestling in the boys division in high school. If there aren't enough girls to form their own division, well, not everything in life has a solution.
One other side note. When I was in high school the lowest weight class was 103 pounds. Many schools couldn't field a wrestler at this weight, so in some cases a team would weigh in a girl and send her out to take the forfeit and collect the team points.
Nov '10
Re: Gentlemen Don’t Wrestle With Ladies
Aaron Miller
That you had no say in determining your sex does not mean it was an accident.
Free will is a key aspect of humanity. It is not, however, unlimited. Attempting to define oneself completely is a futile and pitiable exercise. · Feb 24 at 9:52am
Most people don't plan the gender of their child - at least in the West - so yes, it is generally an accident of birth.
As for the second, who is defining oneself completely? One must have courage to investigate how far one's own free will can take one; it's cowardice akin to sharia to refuse people the opportunity to do so.
Jul '10
Re: Gentlemen Don’t Wrestle With Ladies
So you're opposed to Girl's basketball, soccer, etc. teams? Or you just don't find their existence honorable?
Re: Gentlemen Don’t Wrestle With Ladies
Michael Horn
That being said, if we had gone to the point of applying realistic physical contact, I can see there being an issue. Sparing and training are fine, but I wouldn't have been comfortable hitting the girls in the same manner as I would a boy.
This isn't to say that some of the girls wouldn't have kicked my butt in a fight, but a man does not hit a girl. Period. · Feb 24 at 9:59am
Edited on Feb 24 at 10:00 am
This wasn't the case with the boys I fought. I got dozens of bloody lips, bruises, and on one occasion got kicked so hard in the sternum that I collapsed and was unable to breathe. Ironically, the worst injury I sustained --splintering my knee cap-- was from fighting another girl in a tournament.
Nov '10
Re: Gentlemen Don’t Wrestle With Ladies
I wrestled for 3 years in high school. Here are a couple of the most common moves... The Half-Nelson Crotch: The crotch is gripped as tightly as humanly possible. Notice, it’s not called the Half-Nelson “upper-inner thigh”. The Figure-Four to the Head: The legs are scissor-locked around the opponents head. The opponents nose is crammed as tightly into your crotch as humanly possible. So tightly, the opponent usually taps out from a lack of air. On sensibilities... I would have given quarter to a female opponent. I tried to KILL my male opponents (with no success). I would not have had the same “foaming at the mouth” killer instinct with a girl...giving her unfair advantage. There would have been hesitation. I would have held back. That’s not what the sport is supposed to be about. Therefore, I would not have wanted to wrestle a girl and probably would have forfeited (unless she was really hot). I agree with Michael Horn though...I wouldn’t dare say that there weren’t girls that could kick my butt. I’ve seen a few girls that look like they could have hair on their back.
Jun '10
Re: Gentlemen Don’t Wrestle With Ladies
I don't think girls should be allowed to wrestle with boys. Or play ice hockey. Most boys will feel compelled to hold back, and if this girls has won matches, that could certainly be a factor. My son has a girl on his JV hockey team who plays defense. All season I see boys from the opponent's team charge into the boards to fight for the puck and quickly recoil when they are near her. They are fighting their instinct to check the opponent, and their natural aversion to haming a female takes over.
She's a lovely girl and plays in a local all girl league. In my opinion, that should remain her hockey playing outlet.
In middle school the girls are often bigger and stronger, but that quickly changes once puberty hits. And the grappling and physical contact needed in wrestling makes it inppropriate for girls & guys to be in a match against each other.
Re: Gentlemen Don’t Wrestle With Ladies
Very interesting thread. I'm torn. My gut says that the sexes shouldn't mix/compete against each other in sports for many of the reasons mentioned here, but I defer to Diane, who has actual experience with this. Also, Claire spends a lot of time fighting/sparring (?) men in her sport of choice. I suspect she'd be with Diane. I'll keep checking back to see how this plays out...
Sep '10
Re: Gentlemen Don’t Wrestle With Ladies
When it comes to professional level competition, they have separate female/male competitions in UFC, Boxing, muay Thai, Olympic Greco and Freestyle wrestling and judo and jiu jitsu as well as BJJ at the international level.
Feb '11
Re: Gentlemen Don’t Wrestle With Ladies
I have also trained in Tae Kwon Do and there is no question that the boys and men I spared with held back their full capacity to fight. When I watched the boys/men spar among each other it was done with full and mostly controlled intensity. Not so with the girls/women, with the exception of a very few athletic and larger (i.e. taller & more muscular) women. It may be a bit more different with grappling disciplines but generally it seems that men have the physical advantage in contact sports.
May '10
Re: Gentlemen Don’t Wrestle With Ladies
Hearty kudos to that courageous young man for preferring to lose a match and buck the social tide than betray his own deep-seeded convictions. I predict he will go far in life.
Male and female are equally persons, but they are not the same.
Nov '10
Re: Gentlemen Don’t Wrestle With Ladies
It is ludicrous that Joel Northrup was put in that situation to begin with! School administrators, parents, PTA, anyone?
Athletic competition between the sexes can only result in a compromised competitive spirit. Male athletes would be restrained from bringing on their best game and female athletes would never get the opportunity to show their best stuff. I adore Geno Auriemma's Huskies and Mike K's Blue Devils, but would never want to see a matchup between the two teams.
Vive la difference!
Sep '10
Re: Gentlemen Don’t Wrestle With Ladies
I have two sisters - one older, one younger. As a young man, I learned two important facts.
1. Never hit a girl. Ever. For whatever reason. There will never be an excuse for raising a hand or fist at a girl.
2. If I did hit my older sister, she would beat the snot out of me. In fact, when she was in 6th grade (and I was in 3rd), there was a 7th grader that bothered us on the walk home. She solved that problem by beating him up, in his own front yard, in front of a bunch of other kids. I almost felt sorry for him.
With wrestling, the intense physical contact, the grabbing and groping that could lead to unwanted sexual aggression. Why would anyone promote this (outside the adult entertainment business).
Jun '10
Re: Gentlemen Don’t Wrestle With Ladies
HalifaxCB
it's cowardice akin to sharia to refuse people the opportunity to do so.
This kid is no extremist, he just didn't want to put his hands all over gals...
The gals aren't able to be competitive in this instance, so I'm not sure how much of his free will he could have "explored" if he had competed or how much they could have "explored" theirs....
That comment is a bit silly though eh? Sharia?
Nov '10
Re: Gentlemen Don’t Wrestle With Ladies
And the people who ultimately lose in this scenario are the fans of the game.
May '10
Re: Gentlemen Don’t Wrestle With Ladies
Elizabeth Dunn: It is ludicrous that Joel Northrup was put in that situation to begin with! School administrators, parents, PTA, anyone?
Athletic competition between the sexes can only result in a compromised competitive spirit. Male athletes would be restrained from bringing on their best game and female athletes would never get the opportunity to show their best stuff. I adore Geno Auriemma's Huskies and Mike K's Blue Devils, but would never want to see a matchup between the two teams.
Vive la difference! · Feb 24 at 5:19pm
Agree on all points, ED--except that I've never heard of the huskies or Blue Devils.