Frankly, This Doesn't Sound Like Rape to Me
I'm more than a little puzzled to read that the Jerusalem District Court recently convicted a Palestinian man of "rape by deception" because he told a woman that he was Jewish to persuade her to sleep with him.
Sabbar Kashur, 30, was sentenced to 18 months behind bars on Monday as part of a plea bargain for "rape by deception."
Kashur first met the woman in downtown Jerusalem in September 2008. Kashur, an Arab from East Jerusalem said he was a Jewish bachelor looking for a long-term relationship. The couple went to a nearby building and had consensual sex, according to the complaint.
The woman later discovered the man was Arab and filed a criminal complaint for indecent assault and rape. Under the plea bargain, the charge was reduced to rape by deception.
So, let me get this straight. She meets this guy, scampers off to the nearest building with him for a quick shag, then discovers, to her astonishment, that his esteem for her was not the abiding and eternal sentiment she believed it to be. Color me jaded, middle-aged, single and cynical, but I could have told her that wasn't going to work out the way she hoped, whether or not the guy was Jewish.
Eighteen months in prison, that's no trivial sentence, either. Now, I'm sure we'd all agree that this man is a cad. But a rapist? "If she hadn't thought the accused was a Jewish bachelor interested in a serious romantic relationship, she never would have cooperated," said the judges. Well, I'm sure we all know a lot of women who could put quite a number of men behind bars using those criteria, especially the "interested in a serious romantic relationship" part of it, but I think we can see pretty clearly where we'd be headed if we encouraged them all to press charges.
Set aside the charge that this is a case of religious discrimination, as the convicted man claims. (Honestly, it's hard to avoid that thought.) Is there a man walking among us who would not be charged with rape if we define the crime as, "She'd never have slept with you if she'd known what a sleazy jerk you are?"
Or a woman, for that matter? Is it rape if she seduces him without revealing that in fact, she's a total psycho--the kind of woman, say, who would sleep with you voluntarily and then charge you with rape?
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May '10
Re: Frankly, This Doesn't Sound Like Rape to Me
Aren't the courts in Israel generally "left wing," more likely to rule in favor of minorities in grey-area cases? Or maybe sex trumps race? Whatever, this is an outrage,
And if misrepresenting one's self were off limits in courtship, a lot of us would still be virgins.
May '10
Re: Frankly, This Doesn't Sound Like Rape to Me
....and if this woman was wearing a padded bra, does the man have grounds to countersue?
May '10
Re: Frankly, This Doesn't Sound Like Rape to Me
I confess there was a time in my long ago misguided youth where I would have commended the "gentleman" on his initiative. The world is truly going mad.
Recalls the song "Walking in Memphis" where the lady asks "Tell me, are you a Christian?" to recieve the reply "I am tonight."
Jun '10
Re: Frankly, This Doesn't Sound Like Rape to Me
How much longer would the sentence be if he told her he was also a neurologist?
Re: Frankly, This Doesn't Sound Like Rape to Me
Steve MacDonald: I confess there was a time in my long ago misguided youth where I would have commended the "gentleman" on his initiative. The world is truly going mad.
Recalls the song "Walking in Memphis" where the lady asks "Tell me, are you a Christian?" to recieve the reply "I am tonight." · Jul 23 at 5:50am
You're staying away from any girlfriends of mine, bucko. Rapist, no. Creep, definitely.
May '10
Re: Frankly, This Doesn't Sound Like Rape to Me
Two thoughts.
1) Quoting: "She'd never have slept with you if she'd known what a sleazy jerk you are?" I find myself vaguely wondering whether my wife could have had such an idea cross her mind from time to time.... (not from any overt cause, just the normal frictions of co-habitation, such as forgetting to trim by the sidewalks)
2) In Alan Sharp's A Green Tree in Gedde, one (jerk) protagonist pulls the same sleazy stunt, and when confronted replies: "I felt very Jewish at the time." You will be pleased to know that in the end alcohol fuels his premature demise.
Re: Frankly, This Doesn't Sound Like Rape to Me
I have this fear that if we make it illegal for a man to lie to a woman for sex or romance, we will terminate the human species
Re: Frankly, This Doesn't Sound Like Rape to Me
Claire Berlinski
Steve MacDonald: I confess there was a time in my long ago misguided youth where I would have commended the "gentleman" on his initiative. The world is truly going mad.
Recalls the song "Walking in Memphis" where the lady asks "Tell me, are you a Christian?" to recieve the reply "I am tonight." · Jul 23 at 5:50am
You're staying away from any girlfriends of mine, bucko. Rapist, no. Creep, definitely. · Jul 23 at 6:04am
Just to clarify, Steve: I'm not calling you a creep -- I'm calling him a creep. In our eagerness to denounce the expansion of the crime of rape to include the category of sin, let's not forget that sin is no great thing, either.
May '10
Re: Frankly, This Doesn't Sound Like Rape to Me
Claire, your girlfreinds are safe from me - I turn 60 this year with a much younger wife (no lies involved) and a 3 year old son (to go with three daughters in their 20s), retiring next year to the Philippines. Age, interest and geography combine to eliminate any possibility of your freinds being in danger of a reversion to my long ago misguided youth.
Jun '10
Re: Frankly, This Doesn't Sound Like Rape to Me
I found courtship in Israel to be one of its more charming aspects. In order to date off-kibbutz I had to have a babe, a bottle, a car, a firearm, and a condom. What's not to like?
Re: Frankly, This Doesn't Sound Like Rape to Me
Yeah, well, I got warned that "One slut spoils the kibbutz." Go figure.
May '10
Re: Frankly, This Doesn't Sound Like Rape to Me
Does anyone really think that if you have sex with someone you just met that you (or the other person) are interested in a serious romantic relationship? Aren't the two of you really just interested in "getting your rocks off"?
Jun '10
Re: Frankly, This Doesn't Sound Like Rape to Me
Claire: "Yeah, well, I got warned that 'One slut spoils the kibbutz.' Go figure."
We had one under-aged girl on Kibbutz Gal'ed who had a thing for older (20-ish) European men. The residents had a remarkably common sense solution: the offending male was put on the 6 AM bus back to Tel Aviv the next day. End of incident.
May '10
Re: Frankly, This Doesn't Sound Like Rape to Me
I would really love to hear from Judith on this. Do people in Israel think this is silly? Or is anti-Palestinian sentiment strong enough that this is viewed as justice?
Jul '10
Re: Frankly, This Doesn't Sound Like Rape to Me
It's not rape, point-blank. It's not. And rape isn't a word you throw around casually like...oh, "racist" let's say. I would also love to hear from Judith on this. As someone who defends Israel to what many of my friends might consider an irrational degree...I have a lot of trouble with this one. And I can't see it doing anything to help Israel maintain the moral high ground in Arab-Israeli relations.
May '10
Re: Frankly, This Doesn't Sound Like Rape to Me
Sounds like that Arab needs Atticus Finch to represent him.
Re: Frankly, This Doesn't Sound Like Rape to Me
I can't say what people here think about this generally because I haven't heard anyone discussing the case. I can tell you what I think, though, which is that this whole thing is preposterous. I can't see it holding up on appeal.
Jul '10
Re: Frankly, This Doesn't Sound Like Rape to Me
The Jerusalem decision is not that different from the prevailing Canadian law on sexual assault. According to the Supreme Court of Canada consent to a sexual act is not to be assessed objectively. The new, feminist approved, subjective standard is that any fear on the part of the woman, which need not be reasonable nor communicated to the accused, is enough to vitiate consent. So, here we are and apparently, there they are in Israel too. It looks odious when put in religious terms but that's just a quibble, eh?
May '10
Re: Frankly, This Doesn't Sound Like Rape to Me
This whole situation is preposterous! I'm a firm believer in choices and consequences. This idiotic woman made a really dumb choice. She should suffer the consequences without trying to pin the fault on someone else. Once again, the infantilization of women who should just plain know better.
Jun '10
Re: Frankly, This Doesn't Sound Like Rape to Me
Is there a man walking among us who would not be charged with rape if we define the crime as, "She'd never have slept with you if she'd known what a sleazy jerk you are?"
That's kinda harsh. But then again, maybe you've got a point.