Forget the Church? An Answer to Andrew Sullivan
Andrew Sullivan's cover story in the current issue of Newsweek: "Forget the Church. Follow Jesus."
From Europe and the Faith, by Hilaire Belloc (1870-1953):
Let us take such a writer as Tertullian and set down what was certainly true of his time.
Tertullian was a man of about forty in the year 200. The Church then taught as an unbroken tradition that a Man who had been put to death about 170 years before in Palestine—only 130 years before Tertullian’s birth—had risen again on the third day. This Man was a known and real person with whom numbers had conversed. In Tertullian’s childhood men still lived who had met eye witnesses of the thing asserted….
This Man, Who also was God Himself, had, through chosen companions called Apostles, founded a strict and disciplined society called the Church….
There was certainly at the head of each Christian community a bishop: regarded as directly the successor of the Apostles, the chief agent of the ritual and the guardian of doctrine.
The whole increasing body of local communities kept in touch through their bishops, held one doctrine and practiced what was substantially one ritual.
All that is plain history….
Many of the points I have set down are, of course, demonstrably anterior to the third century. I mean by “demonstrably” anterior, proved in earlier documentary testimony. That ritual and doctrine firmly fixed are long anterior to the time in which you find them rooted is obvious to common sense. But there are documents as well.
Thus, we have Justin Martyr. He was no less than sixty years older than Tertullian. He was as near to the Crucifixion as my generation is to the Reform Bill—and he gave us a full description of the Mass.
We have the letters of St. Ignatius. He was a much older man than St. Justin—perhaps forty or fifty years older. He stood to the generations contemporary with Our Lord as I stand to the generation of Gladstone, Bismarck, and, early as he is, he testifies fully to the organization of the Church with its Bishops, the Eucharistic Doctrine, and the Primacy in it of the Roman See.
The literature remaining to us from the early first century and a half after the Crucifixion is very scanty….But what does remain is quite convincing. There arose from the date of Our Lord’s Ascension into heaven, from, say, A.D. 30 or so, before the death of Tiberius and a long lifetime after the Roman organization of Gaul, a definite, strictly ruled and highly individual Society, with fixed doctrines, special mysteries, and a strong discipline of its own. With a most vivid and distinct personality….And this Society was, and is, called “The Church.”
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Comments:
Apr '11
Re: Forget the Church? An Answer to Andrew Sullivan
Interesting how those who are hostile to the notion of a church suggesting a moral life within a freely chosen religion are usually the same people who love the idea of a centralized government forcing others to abide by their twisted moral vision.
How about a Newsweek cover depicting Karl Marx as a homeless vagrant followed by an expose of the death and ruin his ideas have have wrought?
Oh, and need we ponder a magazine cover of a Mohamed hajj to Times Square?
Mar '11
Re: Forget the Church? An Answer to Andrew Sullivan
I'm guessing that Mr Sullivan is deeply conflicted between his sexuality and his Church (Catholic, as I recall).
Forgetting the Church is his way of resolving the conflict.
I'm not sure why this should be of any interest to anyone else, especially the one or two remaining readers of Newsweek - I stopped reading him several years ago, when he lost the plot.
I used to be Church of England - now I am vague.
Nov '10
Re: Forget the Church? An Answer to Andrew Sullivan
The church (better assembly -- Greek ekklesia as there is no equivalent word in the Greek New Testament from which the word church might come) is the body of Christ, it is the bride of Christ, it is the house of God, it is the flock of God. It is precious to Christ as it is that for which He died. Outside of the Persons of the Trinity and Their love for One another there is nothing more precious in the universe to Them.
May '10
Re: Forget the Church? An Answer to Andrew Sullivan
Mr. Sullivan should trying forgetting both.
Jul '10
Re: Forget the Church? An Answer to Andrew Sullivan
A nice quote by Rev. James Martin, SJ regarding organized religion vs. individual spirituality:
"It’s a healthy tension: the wisdom of our religious traditions provides us with a corrective for our propensity to think that we have all the answers; and prophetic individuals can moderate the natural propensity of institutions to resist change and growth. As with many aspects of the spiritual life, you need to find balance in the tension."
Dec '11
Re: Forget the Church? An Answer to Andrew Sullivan
Finding himself in conflict with the teachings of the church and the text, Sullivan (like Jefferson before him) seeks to make the faith in his own image. They both cut bits out of the text that they don't like... and interpreted others in ways that fitted with their views of the world.
Same old question....Iis there an external holy text, divinely inspired that you are accountable to regardless of time, and zeitgeist?... or can one, in one's own enlightened moment shape the religion, "spin" the text to make it "better".
Jesus was about as concerned with Gay Marriage and abortion in society as Jews in Judea and Samaria at the time were. He devoted the same time to it that contemporary American evangelical authors and intectuals do to ritual human sacrifice in Oklahoma today.
There is an argument to be made that one has a moral epiphany that is superior to text and interpretation of any religion. The sleight of hand is in not simply coming out and stating "I can do it better", but saying "thus it has always been, you have erred and I have discovered the proper interpretation".
Edited on April 7, 2012 at 9:38amDec '11
Re: Forget the Church? An Answer to Andrew Sullivan
Addendum:
It would seem that the churches most in "crisis" are those whose modern interpretations of faith and tradition are closest to Mr. Sullivan's. In accusing churches of not caring about poverty and the sick.... he dons adamantine blinkers, but why am I surprised he's not read Brooks. He's not likely to read that stuff.. might mess up the weltanschauung!
Mr. Sullivan's Jesus:
- it's Buddhist monasticism Jim... but not as you know it.
Apr '11
Re: Forget the Church? An Answer to Andrew Sullivan
Antipodius:
- it's Buddhist monasticism Jim... but not as you know it. · 14 minutes ago
Thankfully, Buddhism without the suicide bombing, slavery, and Maoism. I don't like Sullivan, but I'd rather his solipsism than authentic Buddhism.
Mar '12
Re: Forget the Church? An Answer to Andrew Sullivan
I came into the Roman Church from evangelicalism with its distinct lack of ecclesiology. To be clear, when everyone is in charge, no one is in charge. The practical was that the congregation was in charge and when congregations split (a history of evangelicalism will read exactly this way), a new religion is born.
The history of Protestantism reads like the history of evangelicalism albeit on a larger stage. One can read of the meeting between Luther and Zwingli,and of the lack of agreement between them.
When I was an evangelical, we were parsing Jesus' words in such a way that they were diametrically opposed to what is recorded in the New Testament. I had to find the Church that took Jesus' words at face value.
If I were of a mind to bend Jesus to my opinions or conclusions, I could have stayed where I was at, or gone out and tried to start my own, new denomination based on what I was willing to believe.
The Yellow Pages under Church are a real, historically valid description of what I just wrote, with no depth of scholarship involved.
His words or yours? His Church or yours?
Nov '11
Re: Forget the Church? An Answer to Andrew Sullivan
Atheists heart gerunds.
Sep '10
Re: Forget the Church? An Answer to Andrew Sullivan
Robert E. Lee
K T Cat
Dude, don't backtrack now, you're on to something good! I don't want to be blowing money handing it to a bunch of pedophile middlemen, I want the Truth and you've got it. · 2 hours ago
Keep your money. I've got MY truth, you have to find your own. · 14 hours ago
Robert, sorry for having been flippant. I gave in to the moment and was a bit rude. I should have added the winking emoticon.
Functionally, you've replaced an organized religion with just you. I'm Catholic and I'm confident that despite swerving a bit over 2,000 years, we've converged to something good with such theological momentum we don't deviate much any more. Replacing that with me seems to be far more prone to the errors that come from trying to reconcile faith with modern culture.
Second, it's just so much work. I don't want to have to work on my theology. I want to live. I know that Chesterton, Augustine & Aquinas have worked the problems out already.
Catholic officials' sins don't wash that away.
Sep '10
Re: Forget the Church? An Answer to Andrew Sullivan
Robert E. Lee
K T Cat
Dude, don't backtrack now, you're on to something good! I don't want to be blowing money handing it to a bunch of pedophile middlemen, I want the Truth and you've got it. · 2 hours ago
Keep your money. I've got MY truth, you have to find your own. · 14 hours ago
Second take. This is a cop-out and it doesn't work, not even a little bit. It's the do-your-own-thing-if-it-feels-right morality that underpins the sexual revolution. Look at the places where that has taken hold and check out what's going on there. Search YouTube for "East Cleveland", for example. Here's my personal favorite.
To them, it's all OK and you have no grounds to object because they're doing what you do, just coming to a different end state. They followed the "I've got MY truth" thing to its natural conclusion - true social Darwinism. Nietzsche had that one thing right, at least.
Our lives aren't so different that your Truth and mine shouldn't correlate very strongly. That correlation is called "organized religion."
Dec '10
Re: Forget the Church? An Answer to Andrew Sullivan
Sullivan wants us to be individually Christian rather than members of the Church because individuals are not only much easier for an aggressive government to bully, but individuals are not so likely to aid in the reinforcement of the ideas so important in the faith of others as are socially active members of Churches. If Sullivan were Emperor, Christianity would be done in less than a generation.
Edited on April 7, 2012 at 5:44pmRe: Forget the Church? An Answer to Andrew Sullivan
Late to the party as usual, due to freight. But I offer the following for consideration:
Both of my parents made their careers in the Church, one as a minister and one as an administrator. My brother in law is a superb pastor of a dynamic church down in Vinton, LA. I've seen lives changed in church. Conversely, I've seen lives destroyed as well. When Christ said, "And I also say unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it," it doesn't seem to me that Our Lord was announcing the Church's infallibility, but rather it's eventual triumph. Like any other group composed of the sons of Adam, it will encompass the best and worst of the human condition. But I believe it has been ordained by Our Lord, and given a mission.
I've had more than my share of disappointments with the church, but I would no more disavow it than I would disavow the uniform I wore because some have committed despicable actions while wearing it. My hope,...my prayer, is to serve a larger purpose.
Nov '10
Re: Forget the Church? An Answer to Andrew Sullivan
Dave Carter: ...Like any other group composed of the sons of Adam, it will encompass the best and worst of the human condition. But I believe it has been ordained by Our Lord, and given a mission.
I've had more than my share of disappointments with the church, but I would no more disavow it than I would disavow the uniform I wore because some have committed despicable actions while wearing it. My hope,...my prayer, is to serve a larger purpose. · 55 minutes ago
"As in Adam all die; even so in Christ shall all be made alive." The question is: who is in Christ? "The kingdom of heaven is like unto a great drag net which collects all manner of fishes both good and bad." Best to ask the question: what manner of fish am I?
Peter says: "What of this man?" Jesus responds: "What is that to you? Follow thou me."
Edited on April 7, 2012 at 7:16pmNov '10
Re: Forget the Church? An Answer to Andrew Sullivan
Does anyone find this germane to the discussion? BTW I am not a Baptist so this is not Baptist promotion. Leave the Baptist out and think about what Christianity is really all about.
Edited on April 7, 2012 at 7:27pmFeb '12
Re: Forget the Church? An Answer to Andrew Sullivan
There are at least three Churches to consider:
1. The Roman Catholic Church hierarchy, which Roman Catholics believe has special powers despite the corruption of individual members. If you're not sacramentalist, you don't believe in those special powers.
2. The Visible Church, which all Christians think is composed of various denominations, but all agree is composed of corrupted human beings, includes laity as well as clergy, and includes many false Christians.
3. The Invisible Church, which all Christians believe is composed of only true Christians, overlaps with the Visible Church, and is the Bride of Christ.
Even Protestants should accept that both the Visible Church and the Invisible Church are important to each Christian. To reject the Invisible Church is to reject the community of Christians in favor of proud isolation. To reject the Visible Church is to reject the means God has given us to join the community of Christians in the present age, and to reject accountability to them and the opportunity to help them.
It's true, though, that perhaps the most neglected topic of Protestant theology, a scandal in this age of the para-church and splintered denominations, is ecclesiology.
Jun '10
Re: Forget the Church? An Answer to Andrew Sullivan
K T Cat
Our lives aren't so different that your Truth and mine shouldn't correlate very strongly. That correlation is called "organized religion." · 15 hours ago
I'll buy that
K T Cat
Robert, sorry for having been flippant. I gave in to the moment and was a bit rude. I should have added the winking emoticon.
Functionally, you've replaced an organized religion with just you.
Catholic officials' sins don't wash that away. · 15 hours ago
I wasn't offended and I appreciated your quick come back.
You may be right about replacing organized religion with just myself. My isolation may have something to do with that. I don't get out much any more.
I firmly agree that the sins of the individuals shouldn't damn the whole organization. That is, when I'm looking at it rationally. But I'm not always rational, I too often let my emotions color my comments.
Jun '10
Re: Forget the Church? An Answer to Andrew Sullivan
Dave Carter:
I've had more than my share of disappointments with the church, but I would no more disavow it than I would disavow the uniform I wore because some have committed despicable actions while wearing it. My hope,...my prayer, is to serve a larger purpose. · 14 hours ago
Beautifully put.
Jun '10
Re: Forget the Church? An Answer to Andrew Sullivan
Mothership_Greg
If you would like to make a coherent argument as to why the Catholic Church is an inherently bad institution, then I'd love to hear it. · Apr 6 at 7:54pm
I don't think the Catholic Church is any more inherently bad than Islam, say, or any kind of government. It's large institutions that become more interested in controlling people, in obtaining and holding power than following their stated purpose. My examples were not an attempt to denounce a particular institution, but rather any institution that betrayed their original intent, directly or indirectly.
It's not that some individuals fail, that's human nature, it's when the institutions cover up or even support those who fail, institutions who do not keep their own house in order, yet demand their followers toe the line.