Forget the Church? An Answer to Andrew Sullivan
Andrew Sullivan's cover story in the current issue of Newsweek: "Forget the Church. Follow Jesus."
From Europe and the Faith, by Hilaire Belloc (1870-1953):
Let us take such a writer as Tertullian and set down what was certainly true of his time.
Tertullian was a man of about forty in the year 200. The Church then taught as an unbroken tradition that a Man who had been put to death about 170 years before in Palestine—only 130 years before Tertullian’s birth—had risen again on the third day. This Man was a known and real person with whom numbers had conversed. In Tertullian’s childhood men still lived who had met eye witnesses of the thing asserted….
This Man, Who also was God Himself, had, through chosen companions called Apostles, founded a strict and disciplined society called the Church….
There was certainly at the head of each Christian community a bishop: regarded as directly the successor of the Apostles, the chief agent of the ritual and the guardian of doctrine.
The whole increasing body of local communities kept in touch through their bishops, held one doctrine and practiced what was substantially one ritual.
All that is plain history….
Many of the points I have set down are, of course, demonstrably anterior to the third century. I mean by “demonstrably” anterior, proved in earlier documentary testimony. That ritual and doctrine firmly fixed are long anterior to the time in which you find them rooted is obvious to common sense. But there are documents as well.
Thus, we have Justin Martyr. He was no less than sixty years older than Tertullian. He was as near to the Crucifixion as my generation is to the Reform Bill—and he gave us a full description of the Mass.
We have the letters of St. Ignatius. He was a much older man than St. Justin—perhaps forty or fifty years older. He stood to the generations contemporary with Our Lord as I stand to the generation of Gladstone, Bismarck, and, early as he is, he testifies fully to the organization of the Church with its Bishops, the Eucharistic Doctrine, and the Primacy in it of the Roman See.
The literature remaining to us from the early first century and a half after the Crucifixion is very scanty….But what does remain is quite convincing. There arose from the date of Our Lord’s Ascension into heaven, from, say, A.D. 30 or so, before the death of Tiberius and a long lifetime after the Roman organization of Gaul, a definite, strictly ruled and highly individual Society, with fixed doctrines, special mysteries, and a strong discipline of its own. With a most vivid and distinct personality….And this Society was, and is, called “The Church.”
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Jan '12
Re: Forget the Church? An Answer to Andrew Sullivan
There was a flash-in-the-pan youtube video a few weeks (months?) ago entitled "Why I hate religion but love Jesus". The video, which is thoroughly post-modern and is filled with emotional partial-truths, struck a nerve with enough people that it warranted commenting on. Fr. Robert Barron of Word On Fire posted a video response that likely addresses the same platitudinous attacks levied by Mr. Sullivan. Fr. Barron's commentary is available here.
Dec '10
Re: Forget the Church? An Answer to Andrew Sullivan
Peter,
The admonition to forget the Church and follow Jesus sounds very much like many secular Jews. They want to forget Judaism and just believe in Gd and follow their conscience. I find that most of the time these people forget Judaism, forget Gd and forget their conscience. I suspect it would be the same for Christians.
Of course, this provides a perfect opportunity for a left wing secularist like Andrew Sullivan to sound sort of religious. It also provides us with a little comic relief.
Regards,
Jim
Apr '11
Re: Forget the Church? An Answer to Andrew Sullivan
James Gawron: Peter,
The admonition to forget the Church and follow Jesus sounds very much like many secular Jews. They want to forget Judaism and just believe in Gd and follow their conscience. I find that most of the time these people forget Judaism, forget Gd and forget their conscience. I suspect it would be the same for Christians.
Of course, this provides a perfect opportunity for a left wing secularist like Andrew Sullivan to sound sort of religious. It also provides us with a little comic relief.
Regards,
Jim · 22 minutes ago
Or, particularly given the day, tragicomic (bas)relief. Shades of 'Mene, Mene Tekel Upharsin...'
Apr '11
Re: Forget the Church? An Answer to Andrew Sullivan
Robert E. Lee: Nothing wrong with God. Nothing right with religion. Or maybe I mean the established churches instead. God didn't bring us the crusades and their excesses, God doesn't bugger little boys, God doesn't dance with snakes nor tell his followers to do so. Churches do.
"Morality is doing what is right regardless of what you are told.
Religion is doing what you are told regardless of what is right."
When God speaks to me, I don't need a paid interpreter. · 3 hours ago
Is anything external, perhaps the Bible, involved in your reception of God's word?
Other than disagreeing with Paul's belief that preacher's should be paid (I believe a mild problem for Mormons, who share your opposition to paid clergy), what is the intended significance of the "paid" element? Are the LDS, with their unpaid "Bishops" et. al., superior in their disintermediated access to God? I'm not sure that the evidence suggests that they're much less influenced by their church hierarchy.
Nov '10
Re: Forget the Church? An Answer to Andrew Sullivan
Leslie Watkins: My hope is that Newsweek will get slammed for its hip, white guy, Times Square image of Jesus and that Sullivan's essay will be the least of it. (Actually, without the long locks, Jesus would look an awful lot like the author himself.) · 4 hours ago
Edited 4 hours ago
Leslie, I think you may be making a more profound statement here than you intended to. Newsweek and Andrew Sullivan are trying to make Jesus over into the image of Andrew Sullivan. Which is, of course, idolatry.
Jun '10
Re: Forget the Church? An Answer to Andrew Sullivan
K T Cat
If that's the case, then we should all follow you. · 3 hours ago
God forbid!
Jun '10
Re: Forget the Church? An Answer to Andrew Sullivan
I must apologize, I wrote my post BC (before coffee).
James Of England
Is anything external, perhaps the Bible, involved in your reception of God's word?
I can only speak for myself, and my beliefs, when I speak of who and how I worship.
I don't trust religion or churches, for I find them, like government, more about seizing, exercising, and at all cost, holding, power over other people to be the sole reason for their existence, regardless of whatever they claim their aims to be.
I trust God. I do NOT trust religion. Not the great religions who've slaughtered millions in the name of God nor the small cults of personality who claim to have a personal line to the man himself. If you can't hear His voice yourself then perhaps you aren't listening hard enough.
Sep '10
Re: Forget the Church? An Answer to Andrew Sullivan
Robert E. Lee
K T Cat
If that's the case, then we should all follow you. · 3 hours ago
God forbid! · 1 minute ago
Dude, don't backtrack now, you're on to something good! I don't want to be blowing money handing it to a bunch of pedophile middlemen, I want the Truth and you've got it.
Jun '10
Re: Forget the Church? An Answer to Andrew Sullivan
Robert E. Lee: I must apologize, I wrote my post BC (before coffee).
James Of England
Is anything external, perhaps the Bible, involved in your reception of God's word?
I can only speak for myself, and my beliefs, when I speak of who and how I worship.
I don't trust religion or churches, for I find them, like government, more about seizing, exercising, and at all cost, holding, power over other people to be the sole reason for their existence, regardless of whatever they claim their aims to be.
I trust God. I do NOT trust religion. Not the great religions who've slaughtered millions in the name of God nor the small cults of personality who claim to have a personal line to the man himself. If you can't hear His voice yourself then perhaps you aren't listening hard enough. · 43 minutes ago
What you're looking for is a Church without sinners. Good luck with that.
Jun '10
Re: Forget the Church? An Answer to Andrew Sullivan
etoiledunord
What you're looking for is a Church without sinners. Good luck with that. · 51 minutes ago
Sinners are alright, it's the self-proclaimed saints I'm afraid of.
Jun '10
Re: Forget the Church? An Answer to Andrew Sullivan
K T Cat
Dude, don't backtrack now, you're on to something good! I don't want to be blowing money handing it to a bunch of pedophile middlemen, I want the Truth and you've got it. · 2 hours ago
Keep your money. I've got MY truth, you have to find your own.
May '10
Re: Forget the Church? An Answer to Andrew Sullivan
Robert E. Lee
etoiledunord
What you're looking for is a Church without sinners. Good luck with that. · 51 minutes ago
Sinners are alright, it's the self-proclaimed saints I'm afraid of. · 15 minutes ago
Self-proclaimed saint is an oxymoron, surely.
May '10
Re: Forget the Church? An Answer to Andrew Sullivan
A Facebook friend linked this today.
“Letter to the Church,” by Italian Carlo Carretto (1910-1988).
May '10
Re: Forget the Church? An Answer to Andrew Sullivan
Apparently Cardinal Dolan quoted it in a homily this week. My friend found it here.
Jan '11
Re: Forget the Church? An Answer to Andrew Sullivan
I read the Andrew Sullivan piece in Newsweek. It is the product of a mind that is intrinsically disordered.
Feb '12
Re: Forget the Church? An Answer to Andrew Sullivan
Leslie Watkins: My hope is thatNewsweek will get slammed for its hip, white guy, Times Square image of Jesus ...
Edited 8 hours ago
What I don't understand is why Jesus stories are so often illustrated with a picture of Kenny Loggins.
Dec '11
Re: Forget the Church? An Answer to Andrew Sullivan
"Forget the Church Follow Jesus" makes about as much sense as forget your family love your wife. Of course we stand before God alone when it comes to judgment but we don't stand a chance at that judgment without the help of other believers. To forget others and follow Jesus is anti-Christian where forget yourself, follow Jesus, and help others is the Gospel truth.
Oct '10
Re: Forget the Church? An Answer to Andrew Sullivan
Sullivan made a lot of good points, and some bad ones. He also mentioned Othering theory, which denounces out-group prejudice even as it uses out-group prejudice to unite upper-middle-class urban liberals against everyone who disagrees with them. That bit of hypocrisy never ceases to amaze me.
Nov '11
Re: Forget the Church? An Answer to Andrew Sullivan
Robert E. Lee: Nothing wrong with God. Nothing right with religion. Or maybe I mean the established churches instead. God didn't bring us the crusades and their excesses, God doesn't bugger little boys, God doesn't dance with snakes nor tell his followers to do so. Churches do.
· 8 hours ago
Churches bugger little boys? I don't follow. Horrible people have done horrible things, some in the name of religion. Others have done horrible things secretly, and used their power to cover it up. Individuals are responsible for their actions (or inaction), not abstractions.
It is psychologically appealing to blame abstractions for the terrible things that individual human beings do, but ultimately, this is a profoundly foolish way of looking at the world. This isn't to say that some systems do not tend to result in horrible results (e.g., Communism), but ultimately, the individuals operating under that system are still responsible for their behavior.
If you would like to make a coherent argument as to why the Catholic Church is an inherently bad institution, then I'd love to hear it.
Nov '11
Re: Forget the Church? An Answer to Andrew Sullivan
Robert E. Lee
K T Cat
Dude, don't backtrack now, you're on to something good! I don't want to be blowing money handing it to a bunch of pedophile middlemen, I want the Truth and you've got it. · 2 hours ago
Keep your money. I've got MY truth, you have to find your own. · 3 hours ago
This sounds suspiciously like "Follow your bliss". No thank you.