Forget the Church? An Answer to Andrew Sullivan
Andrew Sullivan's cover story in the current issue of Newsweek: "Forget the Church. Follow Jesus."
From Europe and the Faith, by Hilaire Belloc (1870-1953):
Let us take such a writer as Tertullian and set down what was certainly true of his time.
Tertullian was a man of about forty in the year 200. The Church then taught as an unbroken tradition that a Man who had been put to death about 170 years before in Palestine—only 130 years before Tertullian’s birth—had risen again on the third day. This Man was a known and real person with whom numbers had conversed. In Tertullian’s childhood men still lived who had met eye witnesses of the thing asserted….
This Man, Who also was God Himself, had, through chosen companions called Apostles, founded a strict and disciplined society called the Church….
There was certainly at the head of each Christian community a bishop: regarded as directly the successor of the Apostles, the chief agent of the ritual and the guardian of doctrine.
The whole increasing body of local communities kept in touch through their bishops, held one doctrine and practiced what was substantially one ritual.
All that is plain history….
Many of the points I have set down are, of course, demonstrably anterior to the third century. I mean by “demonstrably” anterior, proved in earlier documentary testimony. That ritual and doctrine firmly fixed are long anterior to the time in which you find them rooted is obvious to common sense. But there are documents as well.
Thus, we have Justin Martyr. He was no less than sixty years older than Tertullian. He was as near to the Crucifixion as my generation is to the Reform Bill—and he gave us a full description of the Mass.
We have the letters of St. Ignatius. He was a much older man than St. Justin—perhaps forty or fifty years older. He stood to the generations contemporary with Our Lord as I stand to the generation of Gladstone, Bismarck, and, early as he is, he testifies fully to the organization of the Church with its Bishops, the Eucharistic Doctrine, and the Primacy in it of the Roman See.
The literature remaining to us from the early first century and a half after the Crucifixion is very scanty….But what does remain is quite convincing. There arose from the date of Our Lord’s Ascension into heaven, from, say, A.D. 30 or so, before the death of Tiberius and a long lifetime after the Roman organization of Gaul, a definite, strictly ruled and highly individual Society, with fixed doctrines, special mysteries, and a strong discipline of its own. With a most vivid and distinct personality….And this Society was, and is, called “The Church.”
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Sep '10
Re: Forget the Church? An Answer to Andrew Sullivan
My hope is that Newsweek will get slammed for its hip, white guy, Times Square image of Jesus and that Sullivan's essay will be the least of it. (Actually, without the long locks, Jesus would look an awful lot like the author himself.)
Edited on April 6, 2012 at 7:44pmJan '11
Re: Forget the Church? An Answer to Andrew Sullivan
Without the church, that authoritative voice in the back of your head ... is merely you.
Jan '12
Re: Forget the Church? An Answer to Andrew Sullivan
Sullivan simply wants you to follow what he thinks Jesus would want you to follow. He thinks Jesus would be a fan of Gay Marriage, so any group that isn't a fan, should be ignored by all of us. That is it. Sullivan is a one-trick pony and has been for a long time.
Jun '10
Re: Forget the Church? An Answer to Andrew Sullivan
Nothing wrong with God. Nothing right with religion. Or maybe I mean the established churches instead. God didn't bring us the crusades and their excesses, God doesn't bugger little boys, God doesn't dance with snakes nor tell his followers to do so. Churches do.
"Morality is doing what is right regardless of what you are told.
Religion is doing what you are told regardless of what is right."
When God speaks to me, I don't need a paid interpreter.
Jun '10
Re: Forget the Church? An Answer to Andrew Sullivan
100 times like.
Robert E. Lee, you are right about churches. However, Peter's post is about the Church.
Jun '10
Re: Forget the Church? An Answer to Andrew Sullivan
The leaders of that early Church wrote letters to their scattered flocks, and a few attempted to compile a complete account of all the stories and sayings from the life of Jesus. The local communities treasured these documents and read them aloud every Sunday. These documents were eventually compiled into a single Book that was lovingly hand-copied by monks for over 1,000 years until the invention of the printing press.
In short: no Church, no Bible. And without the Bible, where would Andrew Sullivan read and learn about this Jesus he claims is opposed somehow to the very Church that has kept alive and spread His teachings for two millennia?
Sep '10
Re: Forget the Church? An Answer to Andrew Sullivan
Because whenever anyone thinks about following Jesus, one thinks first of Andrew Sullivan.
Apr '11
Re: Forget the Church? An Answer to Andrew Sullivan
The Church is important in keeping the mission of Christ alive through the generations. I think the whole thing goes off the rails when it is the Church that is worshiped and the Savior is put on a shelf.
Jun '10
Re: Forget the Church? An Answer to Andrew Sullivan
Robert E. Lee:
When God speaks to me, I don't need a paid interpreter.
Alas, Robert, God has never spoken to me directly, He only speaks to me through interpreters. If I disregard them, how am I to learn the Word of God?
Dec '11
Re: Forget the Church? An Answer to Andrew Sullivan
I dont go to church because I havent found a strain of local protestantism that hasnt retreated to a bunker of unthinking shallowness. I generally like the people, but I cant stand the sermons.
May '10
Re: Forget the Church? An Answer to Andrew Sullivan
While I am somewhat in agreement with Robert E. Lee, I take a different view on his last point. The churches are not "interpreters", they are, if you will, the guard rails along the highway. The acolytes of Heaven's Gate or the People's Temple or the Branch Davidians didn't need interpreters either.
Jun '10
Re: Forget the Church? An Answer to Andrew Sullivan
The answer is in your post. Peter wasn't talking about "a church." He was referring the Church.
Mar '11
Re: Forget the Church? An Answer to Andrew Sullivan
The Greek word translated "church" is ecclesia, which means "a gathering" (of people, of wood, of frisbees...). In the NT it usually referred to a small group of Christians who met in houses, not a building specially built or equipped for the purpose.
Tertullian was a superior fellow, but he was not an author of any Biblical text and has no primary authority. Not with me, anyway. I don't wish to offend my fellow Ricocheteers (?) who happen to be Roman Catholic, but the NT "church" is as far from Roman Catholicism as the 2012 United States government is from 1789 U.S. government, post-ratification.
A first century Christian, especially one who lived prior to A.D. 70, would find modern Catholicism unrecognizable.
Edited on April 6, 2012 at 9:38pmSep '10
Re: Forget the Church? An Answer to Andrew Sullivan
Undermining organized religion is a crucial step in the establishment of fascism. Is it any coincidence that Andrew Sullivan wrote and Newsweek cover-posted this story at the same time that HHS is attacking the Catholic Church through regulations?
Sep '10
Re: Forget the Church? An Answer to Andrew Sullivan
Robert E. Lee: Nothing wrong with God. Nothing right with religion. Or maybe I mean the established churches instead. God didn't bring us the crusades and their excesses, God doesn't bugger little boys, God doesn't dance with snakes nor tell his followers to do so. Churches do.
"Morality is doing what is right regardless of what you are told.
Religion is doing what you are told regardless of what is right."
When God speaks to me, I don't need a paid interpreter. · 56 minutes ago
If that's the case, then we should all follow you.
Sep '11
Re: Forget the Church? An Answer to Andrew Sullivan
Churches are messy, difficult places full of people with varying degrees of brokenness. Churches make tons of mistakes and (regardless of denomination) can be theologically vapid and biblically illiterate.
The problem is that Jesus loves His church very much. Even "worse", the church is the vehicle that He chooses to use to partner with Him in spreading the Gospel of His saving work, which we particularly celebrate this weekend.
A quick story that my pastor likes to tell from his own life. He was a self-confessed "church dilletante", and he liked to tell the Lord "I like You just fine, I just don't like your people very much". One day, he was going along in this vein with a great deal of vigor, and the Lord brought him up short. "I don't ever want to hear you say that again. I love My people."
This isn't an exercise in blind obedience to a man; it's about relationship with the God who made us, loves us and wants as many of us as possible to spend eternity with Him. That mission isn't fulfilled when we cut ourselves off from each other.
Jan '11
Re: Forget the Church? An Answer to Andrew Sullivan
Sorry - I'm not going to fight about religion on Good Friday. My church has, at least, taught me that.
Jun '10
Re: Forget the Church? An Answer to Andrew Sullivan
Amen.
Jun '10
Re: Forget the Church? An Answer to Andrew Sullivan
A little Catholic symbolism: If you take (as Catholics do) Jesus as the New Adam, then just as Adam's bride came out from of the side of a sleeping Adam, so did Jesus' bride (the Church) come out of the side of a "sleeping" Jesus--water of Baptism and blood of the Eucharist. The New Eve being the Whole Church, along with the ultimate symbol of faithful discipleship--Mary.
Oct '11
Re: Forget the Church? An Answer to Andrew Sullivan
It's always the same ... ultimately.