For Those of You Rethinking Iran ...
A Tehran court has sentenced a US citizen to death.
An American man of Iranian descent has been sentenced to death by a court in Tehran for spying for the CIA, local media report.
Amir Mirzai Hekmati was "sentenced to death for co-operating with a hostile nation, membership of the CIA and trying to implicate Iran in terrorism," semi-official Fars news agency said.
The 28-year-old's trial last month heard he had confessed to the charges.
But Mr Hekmati's US-based family say he was in Iran visiting his grandmothers.
This is the situation as it is today, not as it was in 1953. We can debate the wisdom of US foreign policy in 1953 to our hearts' content--and Ricochet is entirely in favor of that debate--but this is the problem we're facing as of January 9, 2012.
Those of you interested in debating the wisdom of our policy in 1953 might want to begin in the archives. Here's some archival material to begin with:
Let the debate begin.
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Mar '11
Re: For Those of You Rethinking Iran ...
Since we in the West have "moved on" (if you'll pardon the expression) from 1953, it's hard for us to appreciate the hatred the Iranian Government still has for the USA and CIA.
In fact, it goes back way before the USA was founded, to 818 or so.
As the Taliban are fond of saying, "you have watches, we have the time" - Islamists work on a different timescale.
Edited on Jan 9 at 3:23amJun '10
Re: For Those of You Rethinking Iran ...
Why not post this in the debate ongoing about it two posts back?
Jun '10
Re: For Those of You Rethinking Iran ...
Four posts back...
Re: For Those of You Rethinking Iran ...
That's a bit more of a "Ron Paul" discussion, and I'm hoping this will turn into an "Iran policy and history" discussion. Of course, any discussion is fine if it's CoC-compliant.
Jun '10
Re: For Those of You Rethinking Iran ...
Is any one else confused by the choices some people of seemingly average or better intelligence make in their travel itinerary? North Korea and Iran are a couple of places in this vast world that I could pass up, even if my dear, but departed, grandmothers were living there. If my relatives cannot leave the country to visit with me elsewhere, why would I suppose that I could, myself, leave once I had entered that same country?
Jun '10
Re: For Those of You Rethinking Iran ...
As far as Iran is concerned (as stated in previous post on Paul), I do not think sanctions will work in forcing Iran to eliminate its nuclear program. There is not a worldwide will for success in this regard. Both China and Russia will subvert a sanctions program and so would, most likely, Europe. I must say, however, I am no expert. There are perhaps many things short of a shooting war that the U.S. could do. If Iran did those things to us, we would probably consider them an act of war and so will Iran. Therefore I believe our choices are actually pretty clear. We either accept Iran into the nuclear community, with all of the problems and potential mayhem that entails. Or we blockade the country, shutting down the Hormuz route and the oil that would flow for hopefully a very short time while we actually use the "breathtaking speed" spoken of in the former post, to take out the Mullahs and their nuclear ambitions both in their minds and under their ground. I am not seeing a middle ground.
May '10
Re: For Those of You Rethinking Iran ...
And today, as in right now, Iran views the extreme sanctions of the United States as an act of war.
So we're surprised by this news bulletin you've provided? I'm not.
Edited on Jan 9 at 6:17amRe: For Those of You Rethinking Iran ...
I presume that his grandmothers could leave if they wished, but would have had trouble obtaining a visa to travel to the US.
Apr '11
Re: For Those of You Rethinking Iran ...
Let's first frame the issues. I'm curious how neo-conservative hawks will address the items under Situational Awareness. I'm curious how libertarian-conservatives will address the issue of means.
Goals. The National Security Strategy outlines our national interests in Iran: (1) eliminating Iran's nuclear weaponization program (code word "international obligations"), (2) thwarting Iran's export of their Islamic Revolution (code word "regional stability"), (3) destabilizing the Iranian political system by supporting insurrectionist movements (code word "human rights").
Means. As outlined in the National Security Strategy, our means include: (1) military force, (2) diplomacy, (3) economic power, (4) development aid, (5) homeland security, (6) intelligence, (7) strategic communications, (8) the American People and the private sector. The National Security Strategy fails to list other instruments of national power: (9) culture, (10) targeted propaganda, psychological and covert operations and other acts of espionage.
Situational Awareness. The elements we must know from the point of view of the US and Iran: (1) vital national interests, (2) national interests, (3) capabilities, (4) intentions.
Policy. What mix of means will achieve US interests, with the least risk?
Edited on Jan 9 at 7:15amSep '11
Re: For Those of You Rethinking Iran ...
The British had and have a horse in this race as the assets nationalised (confiscated) in 1951 onwards were British and it is generally held that the British egged on the CIA. I have always assumed the nationalisation (an illegal act) was as much about internal Iranian politics as anything else. Whether the actions of the USA and UK were wise I cannot say, but I find it extraordinary that they are taken to explain current Iranian attitudes to the West. A year or so ago I asked an ex-FCO (Foreign & Commonwealth Office) friend what he thought should be done, now, about Iran, and he immediately started talking about 1953 - confirming my long-held belief that on anything relating to the Middle East the FCO is worse than useless. Whatever happened in 1953 happened nearly 60 years ago. Very few Iranians were even born then. So I'm sure Claire's documents are very interesting, but I doubt if I'm going to make time to read them.
Apr '11
Re: For Those of You Rethinking Iran ...
You err. In many cultures, history matters. This is particularly true of honor cultures. you need a good read of Bowman's Honor a History and Patai's The Arab Mind (doesn't' directly apply to Iran but makes the point about history). Both are on the USMC's reading list.
You're misapplying Western categories to non-Western societies. This is the first and most common error in much punditry on Iran.
Sep '11
Re: For Those of You Rethinking Iran ...
Jeff Younger
You err. In many cultures, history matters. This is particularly true of honor cultures. you need a good read of Bowman's Honor a History and Patai's The Arab Mind (doesn't' directly apply to Iran but makes the point about history). Both are on the USMC's reading list.
You're misapplying Western categories to non-Western societies. This is the first and most common error in much punditry on Iran. · Jan 9 at 7:36am
Maybe I am, maybe I'm not. It seems likely to me that the events of 1953 are being used by some factions in Iran.
With all due respect to the USMC, I'm in two minds about reading a book called "The Arab Mind". Or "The American Mind", "The 'Caucasian' Mind", "The Male Mind" (and never forgetting "The Lesbian Mind").
May '10
Re: For Those of You Rethinking Iran ...
All cultures understand force and power. We have both at our fingertips yet we use neither. We lack the will. Our enemies have will to spare. Will is how our forefathers defeated the Greatest Empire the world had ever seen over 200 years ago.
I would use whatever military means were needed to destroy Iran's nukes, even if that means bombing the crap out of some areas. There are no easy answers, so let's bite the bullet and go for it.
Tell them to turn our citizen over, or we start bombing things like bridges and power plants. It is time for the Republic to stop showing a lack of will, and show it is strong.
Edited on Jan 9 at 9:06amApr '11
Re: For Those of You Rethinking Iran ...
Bryan G. Stephens: I would use whatever military means were needed to destroy Iran's nukes, even if that means bombing the crap out of some areas. There are no easy answers, so let's bite the bullet and go for it.
Tell them to turn our citizen over, or we start bombing things like bridges and power plants. It is time for the Republic to stop showing a lack of will, and show it is strong.
Why don't you do a mental war-game on this. We currently present an invasion threat on Iran's eastern border. We can do the logistics rather easily. What's holding us back? you think it's just will?
What will Russia do? What will China do? Both of those nations have vital interests in Iran. What could go wrong with your plan for immediate attack? Have you even thought about it?
Apr '11
Re: For Those of You Rethinking Iran ...
Well yes, in your culture it's unfashionable to speak in terms of national character. In most cultures, it's the most common way to think about other cultures. You're reservations are themselves produced by Western cultural categories inapplicable in most places on the earth.
May '10
Re: For Those of You Rethinking Iran ...
Jeff Younger
Bryan G. Stephens: I would use whatever military means were needed to destroy Iran's nukes, even if that means bombing the crap out of some areas. There are no easy answers, so let's bite the bullet and go for it.
Tell them to turn our citizen over, or we start bombing things like bridges and power plants. It is time for the Republic to stop showing a lack of will, and show it is strong.
Why don't you do a mental war-game on this. We currently present an invasion threat on Iran's eastern border. We can do the logistics rather easily. What's holding us back? you think it's just will?
What will Russia do? What will China do? Both of those nations have vital interests in Iran. What could go wrong with your plan for immediate attack? Have you even thought about it? · Jan 9 at 9:20am
They will do nothing. Not to be flip, but what exactly will they do, other than complain? What can they do? Boycott the UN? Public Condemnations? Other than going to war with us, which they will lose, what can they do?
Apr '11
Re: For Those of You Rethinking Iran ...
It is flippant, yes. I'm going to assume you're not trolling, though. It's Ricochet after all.
Come on, war-game it yourself. Think about what they can do. For starters, consider the 2008 Russian incursion into Ossetia. Why would the US make such a big deal about that?
Edited on Jan 9 at 9:54amMar '11
Re: For Those of You Rethinking Iran ...
The Iranian Government hate the British, in particular the Queen, even more than they do the US, for that reason.
Mar '11
Re: For Those of You Rethinking Iran ...
Bryan G. Stephens: All cultures understand force and power. We have both at our fingertips yet we use neither. We lack the will. Our enemies have will to spare. Will is how our forefathers defeated the Greatest Empire the world had ever seen over 200 years ago.
I would use whatever military means were needed to destroy Iran's nukes, even if that means bombing the crap out of some areas. There are no easy answers, so let's bite the bullet and go for it.
Tell them to turn our citizen over, or we start bombing things like bridges and power plants. It is time for the Republic to stop showing a lack of will, and show it is strong.
Bryan, you are absolutely right. The Iranians have been testing are will for some time now and found us lacking. I don't think it would come to openly bombing them but that does have to be seen by all parties as a possibility. I think to myself "What would Reagan do?" Oh, and we may not see ourselves at war with Iran but that is not how Iran sees it.
Edited on Jan 9 at 10:43amMar '11
Re: For Those of You Rethinking Iran ...
double post
Edited on Jan 9 at 10:45am