Exactly What the World Needs: A Return of the Troubles
If I didn't know that the reaction, "Well, that part of the world's always been insane, what can you expect" is never a sufficient analysis of any political event, that would be my reaction to the news of the worst outbreak of sectarian violence in a decade in Belfast.
Police say 700 people took part in the melee on Tuesday night with police coming under a barrage of Molotov cocktails and other projectiles. Several shots were also fired and a photojournalist was hit by a bullet in the leg. A local politician told the BBC that another man suffered a fractured skull after being hit by a brick.
There were also gunshots fired during clashes on Monday night. Police are investigating the incident as an attempted murder. Some 500 people were thought to have taken part in the Monday night riots. Officials say the unrest started when masked members of the Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF), a Protestant paramilitary group, attacked Catholic homes with bricks and fireworks.
Really inspiring comments posted underneath this account on Sky News, too:
Posted by: eastbelfastno1 on June 22, 2011 12:46 PMwell mick if you had to put up with the attacks night after night on innocent people would you stand for it and are community has a right to fight back the pira want a return to the old days they have had a bombing campaign going now for months leaving devices all over northern ireland in city centres were they are children and innocent people trying to get on with there lives so what should we do lye down and let it happen dont think so and the nationalists were the first to use fire arms they have fired more shots in two nights than we have and you want us to stand back and do nothing catch your self on
Well, isn't that depressing. This was supposed to be our model for the possibility of the resolution of this kind of sectarian conflict, wasn't it?
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Comments:
Jun '10
Re: Exactly What the World Needs: A Return of the Troubles
Just last weekend I was talking to a Belfast actor who was passing on good news about the political climate there. Daughter & husband are traveling to Ireland in August & we were holding off booking flights to determine how best to hop over to Glasgow as part of the trip --- deciding whether to leave from Belfast or Dublin. I think our decision has been made!
Murals like the one pictured are chilling, and not uncommon. The UVF has been emboldened because Catholics still face discrimination and unequal treatment by authorities. Glasgow, too, has seen tensions rising as played out in the nasty Celtic/Ranger rivalry. A frightening situation!
Nov '10
Re: Exactly What the World Needs: A Return of the Troubles
Idea: Maintain the rule of law through force. Violently subdue and arrest anyone who throws molotov cocktails, or engages in looting, or smashes windows, or sets cars on fire, or the like. Shoot at anyone who attacks innocent bystanders. Seriously, what's the problem with that?
Jun '10
Re: Exactly What the World Needs: A Return of the Troubles
The problem has long been that the police are selective about whom is subdued or arrested. Bloody Sunday has been re-enacted many times, on a smaller scale.
Sep '10
Re: Exactly What the World Needs: A Return of the Troubles
This conflict befuddles me. I have a bias here, but along with Mr. Rives sensible suggestions above, how about cracking down on masked vigilantes marching in the streets?
A reverse-Burka ban. Show your face for crying out loud.
Feb '11
Re: Exactly What the World Needs: A Return of the Troubles
It seems like they're not celebrating diversity.
Jun '10
Re: Exactly What the World Needs: A Return of the Troubles
"This was supposed to be our model for the possibility of the resolution of this kind of sectarian conflict, wasn't it?" Nope. Only for the gullible.
Dec '10
Re: Exactly What the World Needs: A Return of the Troubles
The 1920-1922 partition of Ireland was supposed to be the model for the possibility of the resolution of this kind of sectarian conflict. The entire island became the Republic of Ireland, and then the northern counties voted to secede and affiliate to the United Kingdom. Everybody gets what they want, and everybody's happy, right? Irish Catholics have a free and independent homeland, and Ulster Protestants have British citizenship.
Why didn't that work? Why has it proven over the last century to be a completely unworkable solution?
Aug '10
Re: Exactly What the World Needs: A Return of the Troubles
Claire Berlinski, Ed.
If I didn't know that the reaction, "Well, that part of the world's always been insane, what can you expect" is never a sufficient analysis of any political event, that would be my reaction to the news of the worst outbreak of sectarian violence in a decade in Belfast.
Mightn't this have something to do with Ireland's economy going from Celtic Tiger to just one of the PIGS?
When you're busy making money, it's easier to forget what a louse your neighbor is.
Jun '10
Re: Exactly What the World Needs: A Return of the Troubles
"Irish Catholics have a free and independent homeland, and Ulster Protestants have British citizenship.
Why didn't that work? Why has it proven over the last century to be a completely unworkable solution?"
Because the Catholics were never given full civil rights and they were constantly targerted by British police and Protestant paramilitary groups. Violence begets violence.
May '10
Re: Exactly What the World Needs: A Return of the Troubles
Which authorities would that be? Would that be the NI Executive, where Sinn Fein hold the Deputy Leadership, and the Education; Culture, Arts & Leisure and Agriculture and Rural Development Portfolios?
And rather than being "emboldened" by discrimination and unequal treatment unspecified (*), might they also just want to join in the fun and games started a few months ago when the "I Can't Believe It's Not The IRA" started letting bombs off again?
* I'm not denying that its possible, merely pointing out that were it significant, the overwhelming pro-nationalist faction in the BBC would be screaming about it every night. Not even a handwringing "Panorama" has been seen, so I have to be sceptical.
Aug '10
Re: Exactly What the World Needs: A Return of the Troubles
A plague on both their houses I would say from a couple of hundred miles away. Unfortunately, Sinn Fein, the political wing/rump of the IRA made extensive gains in the recent elections in the Republic so we clearly have a growing market for neo- Marxist claptrap, lent some credibility by the economic woes that have befallen us.Radical economic policies are one thing but mix in the whiff of cordite that still lingers and it all becomes very worrying and much too close to home. That said, it does seem the Loyalist (ie pro-British) side is the main antagonist in this round.It's often forgotten that there were paramilitaries on both sides in the really bad days. PS. I guess the Rory McIlroy thing didn't unite everyone after all ( no reflection on him personally, I hasten to add!).
Aug '10
Re: Exactly What the World Needs: A Return of the Troubles
Stuart Creque, I am generally a great admirer of your comments and we see eye to eye on a lot of issues, but you have the story of the partition all wrong-there was no all-island Republic in 1921 and no secession by the northern counties.The partition was the starting point not the end game, although it may turn out to be just that. And you can take it that religion ceased to be a major driving force for conflict decades ago- it's purely tribal now.
Jan '11
Re: Exactly What the World Needs: A Return of the Troubles
Stuart Creque
The 1920-1922 partition of Ireland was supposed to be the model for the possibility of the resolution of this kind of sectarian conflict. The entire island became the Republic of Ireland, and then the northern counties voted to secede and affiliate to the United Kingdom. Everybody gets what they want, and everybody's happy, right? Irish Catholics have a free and independent homeland, and Ulster Protestants have British citizenship.
Why didn't that work? Why has it proven over the last century to be a completely unworkable solution? · Jun 22 at 12:45pm
I think John Yoo's thoughts about the provenance and viability of nation-states are addressing a similar issue from a different angle.
Jun '10
Re: Exactly What the World Needs: A Return of the Troubles
Yes....and to suggest (as I believe Robert has) that discrimination against Catholics didn't exist in 1921 and persist for decades is quite unbelievable.
May '10
Re: Exactly What the World Needs: A Return of the Troubles
Er ... no. That is not what I meant, and certainly not what you wrote. You emphasised the word still, which implies injustice in 2011, not in 1921 (when it would have been beyond dispute). That is why my criticism of your statement cited current authorities, and not those of 90 years ago. I'm not aware of anything about current conditions that would have emboldened (again, your word) Loyalist terrorists. And if you disagree, you need to provide evidence, not merely cite a lingering sense of grievance.
Jun '10
Re: Exactly What the World Needs: A Return of the Troubles
"I'm not aware of anything about current conditions that would have emboldened (again, your word) Loyalist terrorists. And if you disagree, you need to provide evidence, not merely cite a lingering sense of grievance."
Really? What about findings from the Ballast investigation? Early 2000, not decades ago. Conducted by the Police Ombudsman, it was found that dozens of murderers were protected by the police & there was obvious collusion between paramilitay organizations (specifically UVD) and the police.
I'm not talking about ancient grievances, where the descendants of Catholics who pre-dated all those British settlers are still angry about being forced off their land. I'm talking about active discrimination that escalates into violence. It's not rocket science. When people have evidence that the very police force that is charged with protecting all citizens is actually working against them, they will take drastic action. What better way to recruit new provisional IRA members? (Yes, many are just opportunistic thugs.)
We've seen it happen in the US, when the civil rights activists could not turn to their police protectors for help. The ugly, violent, & irrational factions gained power. Violence escalated & the innocent paid the price.
May '10
Re: Exactly What the World Needs: A Return of the Troubles
Posting error - sorry
Edited on June 23, 2011 at 3:49pmMay '10
Re: Exactly What the World Needs: A Return of the Troubles
Actually, no. Let's stipulate that all those crimes took place. The Good Friday agreement took place on 10 April 1998. A couple of weeks later the Police (Northern Ireland) Act 1998 took force, creating the role of Police Ombudsman. The Royal Ulster Constabulary was disbanded and a new organisation, the Police Service of Northern Ireland was set up. Bad things were investigated, and the report you refer to was published - part of the clearing of the air after years of violence. The apologies were issued about Bloody Sunday after an interminable inquiry which studiously avoided ever mentioning the rumours that the now-Deputy First Minister, then a senior IRA man, had fired the first shot (which wouldn't have justified the Paras actions, but, well, you know).
So I ask, a decade on, please justify "still".
Edited on June 23, 2011 at 3:50pmDec '10
Re: Exactly What the World Needs: A Return of the Troubles
Since you're actually in Ireland, I'll take your word for the historical sequence. The principle, however, remains the same: a two-state solution was supposed to satisfy everyone but in reality there's a hardcore element that rejects the second state and wants it eradicated. Partition plans have to be enforced to succeed, and their opponents must be made to see that no other outcome will be acceptable. That's why carving Kosovo out of Serbia was a bad idea: Albanians already had a nation-state, and used demographic conquest to add territory from Serbia.
Jun '10
Re: Exactly What the World Needs: A Return of the Troubles
I happen to be visiting family not far from that mural. Ricochet has more boots on the ground than Reuters! Most people here are angry that an ignorant mob has spoiled the good news about the golf, but don't see much political significance to it. All the issues brought up in this thread were settled in the peace agreement, and a bit of rioting isn't going to undo that. The UVF is trying to show it still has muscle because it is afraid of current investigations into crimes it committed in the early 1990s. There is a hard core of dead-enders on both sides, but the vast majority have moved on. The theory at the top of this thread about the UVF being emboldened by official discrimination against minorities is absurd.