Even Heroes Can Be Over-compensated
Here in Ohio, Governor Kasich is being demonized for not exempting firefighters, among others, from his efforts to roll back public-sector unions. Some variation of "Our heroes deserve better" is the typical line intended to innoculate firefighters from having to share in the sacrifice.
Yawn. Truth is, get a couple beers in 'em and most firefighters (I'm good friends with a couple) will admit that firefighting is a fantastic gig if you can get it: Good pay, great benefits, pension, and job security, loads and loads of time off (enough to allow plenty of under-the-table secondary income in addition to vacations), and extremely early retirement--early enough, in fact, to start an entirely new career in one's early fifties while collecting a pension.
All this, and the job is not quite so dangerous as it's made out to be. Among the many professions which are more dangerous than firefighting (some of them substantially so) are taxi drivers, garbage men, truckers, roofers, tree trimmers, construction workers, and farmers. Are these folks not heroes, too? They do important work, afterall, while experiencing more danger and while paying the salaries of the generally better-compensated firefighters.
Firefighters are heroes, sure. And so's the politician brave enough to suggest that they've got it good enough.
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Oct '10
Re: Even Heroes Can Be Over-compensated
Shhhhh... We're trying to sneak up on them...
May '10
Re: Even Heroes Can Be Over-compensated
Scott Reusser:
Firefighters are heroes, sure. And so's the politician brave enough to suggest that they've got it good enough. ·
Agreed.
Rush put it perfectly today. He said he keeps hearing all these teachers say they'd be willing to accept less. But the issue isn't what public employees will accept. The issue is what taxpayers can afford to pay them.
We would all love to give everyone good pay and benefits, but then there's the real world. If firemen want more money for being heroes, let them ask other public employees to take salary cuts.
Jun '10
Re: Even Heroes Can Be Over-compensated
I have three firefighters in my unit. All three have been using whatever means they have at their disposal to get me to become a firefighter at one of their stations. The typical enticement is the 24 on, 48 off schedule of an active firehouse, and the fact that I'm a foodie (good for their bellies) and kick butt on the Xbox 360 (good for the endemic boredom associated with the job). All three of my guys and every other paid firefighter I've ever met say it's the best job a guy can get for three reasons: esprit de corps/exalted status, retirement and medical, and work schedule. I'm not terribly sympathetic.
Edited on March 19, 2011 at 6:48pmDec '10
Re: Even Heroes Can Be Over-compensated
I’m jealous.
Oct '10
Re: Even Heroes Can Be Over-compensated
Sep '10
Re: Even Heroes Can Be Over-compensated
At some point a hero stops being a hero when he becomes a mercenary.
But I can't believe that firefighting is safer than construction work or driving a taxi or a truck. I'd like to see the abstractions of that study.
Firefighters are heroic since they go into very dangerous environments as a matter of course to save lives whereas those other jobs may be hazardous but not requiring heroism per se.. I was once saved by fireman. They put a ladder up and a fireman climbed up and got us out.
One of the firefighters responding to that fire shattered his knee and will never walk the same again..
May '10
Re: Even Heroes Can Be Over-compensated
It'll never happen, of course, but it seems to me the most sensible method would be for communities to freeze benefits and keep them frozen until such time as they're unable to attract and keep competent firemen (or secretaries, or whatever), at which point they will have established the "market value" of the job.
It sounds heartless, yes, but that's essentially how the compensation is determined for someone willing to climb a hundred feet into a rotten, swaying oak, with just a rope and a chainsaw, to protect our houses and power lines from unsafe trees. These folks make substantially less than firemen and do heroic work, too (I have one acquaintance and one friend-of-a-friend who've become paralyzed doing exactly that job...and had they died, there would have been no parade).
May '10
Re: Even Heroes Can Be Over-compensated
Exactly my experience.
It's also worth noting that (at least around here) whenever communities have firefighter openings, they get hundreds, even a thousand or more, of hardy young men willing to pay money for right to go through the application process. This would suggest that maybe, just maybe, we could offer less and still have a sufficient supply of heroes.
(Why don't you go for it, Casey? You'd certainly be good at the job, and military experience is weighed heavily--as it should be--in ranking candidates.)
Mar '11
Re: Even Heroes Can Be Over-compensated
I'm an amusement park rides mechanic. My right leg is still swollen from the knee down after getting it smashed between two "cars" in an accident that happened a month ago. (It's a roller coaster type ride with single cars as opposed to a "train.") I haven't missed a single minute of work, alas, I have no benefits.
I've seen many mechanics with mangled arms, legs, burns, missing fingers, and various other battle scars. Mechanics work with stored energy. Energy is typically stored slowly over time (think charging a battery or compressing a spring) but accidental release is instantaneous and violent. My fellow mechanics and I take these risks because we are paid to make life more enjoyable for the masses.
I have little sympathy for whiny, union cops or firemen.
Edited on March 19, 2011 at 5:13pmJun '10
Re: Even Heroes Can Be Over-compensated
Noooo. I'm lazy enough as it is. :)
Seriously, though, I'm going in another direction. I can spill the beans here, since I like all of you guys: I'm about two years away from starting a firearms training and non-lethal response/use of force company aimed in particular at civilians and small law-enforcement agencies. My goal is to increase accessibility to good training, as most of the training groups are prohibitively expensive for the average citizen and small departments often can't justify the cost of TASER, OC, baton, and unarmed combatives certification. I'm cheap and willing to travel, so I see a niche. But I promised my wife that I wouldn't take any more Army breaks from college, so I'm still two years away.
Jun '10
Re: Even Heroes Can Be Over-compensated
Sometimes, the most dangerous acts happen before the fire department even gets there, when civilians try to save the people trapped in burning buildings. There's no pension for that.
Jun '10
Re: Even Heroes Can Be Over-compensated
I'm sure there's an eternal reward, though.
Nov '10
Re: Even Heroes Can Be Over-compensated
I to do not shed tears for firefighters. A close personal friend ran a very successful woodworking business on the side. The only thing that he did not get was the pension having lost the fight to cancer before accessing it. That's what I shed a tear for.
Mar '11
Re: Even Heroes Can Be Over-compensated
Yes, there's boredom and good hours and a nice pension; the day-to-day life of a firefighter isn't all that bad. But there is going to be the day when we need him to run into a burning building, and a firefighter doesn't have the option to say no. Maybe a civilian will do it if there's someone or something important to him in that building, but the firefighter does it because that's his job; that act is singularly more dangerous than any one thing a taxi driver or farmer is expected to do. A farmer might have more chances to get hurt on a daily basis - tractors are not toys - but when the house is afire, the farmer has the option of walking away.
None of that's saying there's no ceiling to what we pay these guys, but it's not exactly apples to apples to compare their benefits with an amusement ride mechanic. The market won't tell us what is good enough for a firefighter; only voters and taxpayers can do that.
Mar '11
Re: Even Heroes Can Be Over-compensated
Jackal,
Part of my job is to strap on a harness and climb to the top of rides that have experienced a failure, often several stories up, to remove guests from their seats, keep them calm, (they do tend to panic) and get them safely to the ground. I do not have the option to say no.
Nor am I moved by your argument.
Edited on March 19, 2011 at 8:26pmJun '10
Re: Even Heroes Can Be Over-compensated
I think there is a wide range of danger levels that firefighters face. It's an entirely differnt job at departments around the country. Urban vs. rural has a lot to do with that. I know firemen who have been shot at when fighting fires in the Newark NJ projects. I know some who have to function as EMTs as well as firefighters. They have not a moment of down time on every shift -- run, after run, after run. Some departments also handle the hazardous waste functions for their counties. Don't forget arson investigation.
It's a dream gig if you are warm & dry at the fire house, being paid for llifting weights, reading a book, or enjoying a gourmet feast. It's a life or death job when the alarm sounds & you grab your gear & go.
Mar '11
Re: Even Heroes Can Be Over-compensated
Gus Marvinson: Part of my job is to strap on a harness and climb to the top of rides that have experienced a failure, often several stories up, to remove guests from their seats, keep them calm, (they do tend to panic) and get them safely to the ground. I do not have the option to say no.
Nor am I moved by your argument. · Mar 19 at 12:25pm
Edited on Mar 19 at 12:26 pm
I am not Wonderboy, and so do not have the power to move you - I accept that. But I'd reconsider trying to compare the stranded rollercoasterer to the denizen of a burning apartment complex. What you do may be just as dangerous as a firefighter - and each less dangerous than professional football - but the reasons you are called into service are vastly different.
Mar '11
Re: Even Heroes Can Be Over-compensated
As one who spent several years as a wildland firefighter I find the argument for some form of exemption unpersuasive. Those I worked with who were looking to make a career out of firefighting dreamed of landing a city firefighting job such as those in Wisconsin, it is akin to winning the lottery. They would bide their time keeping an ear to the ground for openings anywhere in the country, hoping they could "retire" to one of these plum positions which as Mr. Reusser correctly noted would easily garner hundreds of applicants. No doubt many of these firemen in Wisconsin have performed heroic actions and I am confident that all of them would perform up to that standard if called upon, however there is no need to place them on a pedestal. Firefighters are worthy of your respect, but not reverence. There is no legitimate reason for them to be exempted.
May '10
Re: Even Heroes Can Be Over-compensated
Jackal
What you do may be just as dangerous as a firefighter - and each less dangerous than professional football - but the reasons you are called into service are vastly different.
I hope this doesn't degrade into a who's-the-most-brave argument; that certainly wasn't my intention.
Also, risk-taking is strongly discouraged in firefighting. Terrible accidents happen, of course, but no chief orders his men into a building if he suspects that they have a reasonable chance of dying, even if the life of a citizen is at stake. If he did, he wouldn't be a chief very long.
76 Cleveland firefighters have been lost in the line of duty since 1863. (I'd imagine that rate is way lower in suburban communities.) Every single one is a hero beyond words. Still, that isn't that big a number considering the thousands and thousands of runs made over the last 150 years. Backdraft and similar Hollywood portrayals do not accurately depict the caution that fire departments demand of their men.
May '10
Re: Even Heroes Can Be Over-compensated
Casey, if I were a chick I'd be on you like white on rice. Just sayin'.