European Democracy: The Creature from the Black Lagoon
The other day I put up a post lamenting the death of democracy in Europe. Too soon! Prime Minister Papandreou has now called for a referendum on the austerity program the French and Germans wish to impose on Greece. The response in Europe? Recoiling with horror. It's as if democracy--you know, the idea that the people of nation ought to be consulted once in awhile--represents the sudden emergence of monstrous, half-forgotten evolutionary dead end. Democracy as the Creature from the Black Lagoon.
The Wall Street Journal gets it, as is the Journal's wont, just exactly right. Beneath the Journal's always dignified prose, you can almost hear the chortling:
George Papandreou became the most unpopular man in Europe on Monday by announcing that his government would put the terms of last week's EU-IMF bailout package to a referendum, so that Greeks can decide their economic future for themselves. The Prime Minister's announcement sent markets tumbling world-wide, took Italian government-bond yields to a near euro-era high, and had German officials privately denouncing his behavior as un-European.
An alternative view is that Mr. Papandreou has done his own people, and all Europeans, a considerable favor. Who would have thought the Greeks had something to teach the world about democracy?
Put me down for the second view, the view that Papandreou has done us all a favor.
You?
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Dec '10
Re: European Democracy: The Creature from the Black Lagoon
Since the EU doesn't really have any riot police on its own payroll, it was asking the Greek government to impose the austerity measures in the bailout deal and to enforce those measures with Greek police. Given that there were already deadly riots in the streets of Athens over prior austerity measures, and given that compliance with those prior austerity measures was sketchy, it was certain that imposing the new bailout provisions would have entailed great violence on the part of the Greek government against its recalcitrant citizens.
By resorting to a referendum, the Socialist government can achieve one of two outcomes. If the referendum passes, the government can tell protesters to take the issue up with their neighbors. If the referendum fails, the government will be able to avoid using Greek police to enforce the austerity measures, and if Greece happens to drop out of the Eurozone and reissue a currency that it can devalue to economically rational levels, it may lead to renewed economic growth in Greece... which would benefit the Socialists' electoral prospects.
Dec '10
Re: European Democracy: The Creature from the Black Lagoon
I always thought the Gill-Man looked a little like Martin Van Buren, with gills substituted for sideburns.
Mar '11
Re: European Democracy: The Creature from the Black Lagoon
It's not such a good lesson because it indicates that people will vote themselves more money indefinitely - without worrying about where the money is coming from.
It's what Mr Obama means by democracy.
May '10
Re: European Democracy: The Creature from the Black Lagoon
Too bad Steven Jobs is no longer with us. He could buy the country, have it remade by the Chinese, and we could all have a great efficient vacation in iGreece.
Jul '10
Re: European Democracy: The Creature from the Black Lagoon
As Michael Ray Richardson once said, "The ship be sinkin'."
Re: European Democracy: The Creature from the Black Lagoon
You're onto something. Steve once told me that the way to solve Mexico's problems was to hand the country over to Disney. He was only half joking.
May '10
Re: European Democracy: The Creature from the Black Lagoon
I agree with David I'm afraid. There's nothing inspiring about voting that you shouldn't have to repay your debts. It's election as temper tantrum and Papandreou valuing his own street popularity at the expense of the world economy. The American founders designed representative democracy in order to avoid just such a debacle.
So Greece votes themselves no austerity, thank you very much -- so then what? They default, banks come tumbling down, credit goes into a deep freeze globally. But conservatives cheer first principles?
Hmm.
Edited on Nov 2, 2011 at 2:48pmMay '10
Re: European Democracy: The Creature from the Black Lagoon
Papandreou was elected to lead his nation. The entire point of a democratic republic is that leadership is vested with legitimacy through the democratic process. These representatives are then required to make the tough decisions. By putting the deal to a referendum, Papandreou tried to dodge that responsibility (as a last ditched attempt to save his political career) by hiding behind direct democracy.
I am sympathetic to the critique of the european bureaucratic state. Very, very sympathetic. In this case, however, I think Papandreou is acting more like the faceless eurocrat functionary that dodges responsibility for his decisions rather than a true leader.
Edited on Nov 2, 2011 at 2:41pmDec '10
Re: European Democracy: The Creature from the Black Lagoon
Peter, your second view means that the Greeks have voted in favor of a new standard of living which will be a fraction of what they could have maintained by accepting the bail out and the required austerity measures.
Instead of Germany transferring the wealth of it's own citizens to Greece so that Greek citizens can maintain much of their credit card lifestyle, Greece will be days away from a sudden and devastating date with reality.
By what calculation are the Greeks valiant to demand other peoples money and take offense at the terms offered. By what calculation does Greece deserve any sympathy for the terms offered by Germany so that German citizens can take responsibility for Greece's malfeasance.
Nov '10
Re: European Democracy: The Creature from the Black Lagoon
The procedure reminds me of the plebiscites in Germany during the mid-'Thirties. The method is quite bothersome to me. What, for example, would we think if the President asked for a popular referendum on the question of his new "Jobs Act", which, he says, Congress is obstructing.
The difference, if there is one, may be in the fact that the people of Greece have little or no ability to influence the actions of the Eurocrats and the European "Parliament". If I understand the system aright, there isn't any real way for their voices to be heard. Judged on that basis, I agree with Peter Robinson's initial post to the effect that this is a welcome breath of fresh air into the stuffy rooms filled with European officialdom and snooty politicians.
Mar '11
Re: European Democracy: The Creature from the Black Lagoon
I'd be more impressed by the UK government offering a referendum on whether the UK should leave the EU - it is possible the people would say "leave" because the UK gives more to the EU than it gets.
In Greece, would the people vote to leave the EU, or even the Euro? If they left, the money from Germany would dry up, but, longer term, Greece's economy would recover.
I'm guessing they would vote for more money from Germany?
Edited on Nov 2, 2011 at 4:24pmSep '10
Re: European Democracy: The Creature from the Black Lagoon
I wouldn't say this election is inspiring, the entire spectacle is pretty shabby, but the alternative here isn't representative democracy, it's non-representative autocracy. At least here the Greek populace plays a part in their own bad decisions. Maybe that leads ultimately to some sense that what's happening to them now isn't just the malevolent caprice of the gods of Europe, but owes something to their own actions.
Mar '11
Re: European Democracy: The Creature from the Black Lagoon
Of course, if this referendum goes anything like previous referenda (in Ireland for instance) on EU matters, Papandreou will simply keep calling for a re-vote until the people give him the answer he wants.
The EU has a great history of "consulting the people": ask the people for their opinion over and over until they happen to "agree" with you.
Dec '10
Re: European Democracy: The Creature from the Black Lagoon
The issue of this referendum is not "the Greeks voting themselves more money from Germany to fund their credit-card lifestyle." This is about the Germans demanding that the Greeks take German money but stop leading a credit-card lifestyle. The Germans need the Greeks to take the bailout money to keep the Euro nominally functional. However, every time they've written a check to Greece, they've attempted to force the Greeks to agree to reform their profligate ways - and every time the Greeks have promised to reform, and then promptly broken that promise.
So the referendum is a stark choice: do the Greeks want at last to keep their commitments to austerity in return for the money needed to stay in the Eurozone, or do they want to leave the Eurozone and turn to devaluing the reborn drachma to evade the need for austerity? There is no option to take more money and keep running up their debts: they will have to choose between austerity or ostracism from the Eurozone.
Apr '11
Re: European Democracy: The Creature from the Black Lagoon
I'm a supporter of the referendum, although my guess is that Papandreou has some selfish motivations. It's going to be one of the biggest decisions that Greece faces this century, and it will only work (either way) if there is popular buy-in. If the referendum says no, Greece defaults and leaves the Euro, there will be pain unprecedented in modern Europe. If they say yes, and implement austerity, there will be similar amounts of pain. Either way, it's a lot less bad if a referendum reduces the violence and civil strife that follows. Plus, Papandreou and his family and friends are less likely to be murdered in the streets, and outcome I would like to avoid, even in 20 years time, even though he's been a terrible politician.
Dec '10
Re: European Democracy: The Creature from the Black Lagoon
Mr. Churchill's dictum rules here. Democracy is the worst system except for every other one. The Greek public either signs on and does the right thing or openly commits suicide. They have the right and we have the responsibility to give them their choice. When the French rioted in the streets over an increase in the retirement age of 2 years (with people living 15 years longer) we all learned how deep the problem was. It will be best to know now if the Greek people are sane collectively or beyond reason. We need to face the world as it is. Democracy helps us know the truth.
Apr '11
Re: European Democracy: The Creature from the Black Lagoon
Normal people and companies default all the time. If you have no way of paying of your debts except by selling off all that you own and you children, you just refuse to pay. The creditors hold equal responsibility in lending to untrustworthy debtors. Greece has no good choices, so they have nothing to lose. The Germans and French should not have give all the easy credit. Its sort of like the banks thinking they can make bad loans all over the place and then be able to not take a hit to the bottom line.
Sorry, doesn't work like that. Defaulting on your debts or restructuring them are the only options. The creditors can only collect from Greece if they invade, which they wont do, or if Greece passes austerity measures to reduce spending and forks over the money to pay down some of the principle at least.
Dec '10
Re: European Democracy: The Creature from the Black Lagoon
Stuart Creque:
...
the referendum is a stark choice: do the Greeks want at last to keep their commitments to austerity in return for the money needed to stay in the Eurozone, or do they want to leave the Eurozone and turn to devaluing the reborn drachma to evade the need for austerity? There is no option to take more money and keep running up their debts: they will have to choose between austerity or ostracism from the Eurozone.
Returning to the Drachma is a fantasy - there is no one who will give the Greeks credit for any purpose. Even if there were a route to return to the Drachma, the exchange rates would force depression like austerities on Greece. The Greeks have no way out.
Any romanticizing about the referendum is puzzling. The Greeks have, in reality, stolen a large amount of wealth from the other EU countries and are demanding additional transfers. Greece has no "rights" to other countries wealth and there are no responsibilities owed to Greece by the rest of the EU or the U.S. The Greeks deserves exactly what they have queued up for themselves, wool shirt austerity and depression.
Oct '10
Re: European Democracy: The Creature from the Black Lagoon
Peter, I don’t agree that George Papandreou has done us a favor. The Wall Street Journal also has an article High-stakes move that sheds some light on his possible motives.
Isn’t the root of the problem that Monet and his followers tried to create a united Europe run by France and financed by Germany without asking the agreement of the citizens in the countries involved? By creating a monetary union within the EU that had no control over fiscal policy in the individual countries, the union was doomed to failure from the start. The suffocating rules instituted by the EU bureaucracy in Brussels result in low growth and high employment, so they cannot grow themselves out of this problem. They spend little on defense. France is out of money, and Germany is out of patience. Margaret Thatcher’s famous dictum is proving correct again: they have run of other people’s money. It is the end game of the welfare state.
Greece has been living beyond its means for decades and will suffer severe hardship whether they remain in the Euro zone or not. The impact to the world economy of this situation is what worries me.
Jan '11
Re: European Democracy: The Creature from the Black Lagoon
Greece is going to get austerity, whether it's imposed by the EU or the result of a worthless drachma.
The current bailout "plan," if you can call it that, calls for getting Greece's debt/GDP ratio down to 120%....by 2020. Will somebody please explain to me (a) how this bailout plan is superior to all previous plans, and therefore will hold up for more than a couple of months, and (b) how Greece can conceivably stagger along with debt still significantly higher than GDP for the next nine years?
I think the Greeks can leave now, return to the drachma, and essentially have 1980 (everybody is broke, but at least there's a tourist trade).
Or they can continue rioting in the streets for the year or more it takes for all the bailout plans to fail, return to the drachma, and have 1960 (everybody is broke and there is no concept of a tourist trade).