Drug War Dispatches
The Mexican army closed down a narco training camp today in the state of Veracruz, Mexico (on the Atlantic coast).
Some people may be interested in seeing the images I got off of Blog del Narco.
The narco is always evolving and the forces of good are always one step behind.
These photos may show one reason why: they have a pretty deep bench.
Now think about whether the drug war is really worth the cost. Is this like one of those "foreign entanglements" Washington warned us about in the 18th cent, etc etc.? I guess that if you live in the US, then this foreign entanglement must be worth the cost, ie, worth disrupting Mexican society to the point of anarchy, to interdict a certain percent of the drugs that flow north. That must be enough to raise the street price of drugs so as to price US kids out of the market. Therefore, in the near future, there will be way fewer addicts because kids won't have had the chance to try the drugs in the first place. Then the good guys win the drug war.
But the eradication of drug use in society was supposed to be the means to an end, not an end in itself. Drug use was seen as a destructive force for society, which was why government could intervene in the first place and criminalize drug use. The end is a more cohesive society. The means is eradication of drug use.
Therefore, even statistics about the decline, or rise, of drug use are not really relevant to the discussion of the question of whether the drug war is worth the cost. It is worth the cost of destroying a society so as to save a society? Is the infamous Vietnam-era justification come back to haunt us, big-time?
I'm sure that people living in the US find that it has been worth the cost to Mexican society so far. I'm sure that by many measures we are winning the drug war. We're OK with destroying Mexico to save the US. Fine. Fair enough. But maybe if this thing gets out of hand, the US will be caught with its pants down once again. The border is anarchic enough as it is but if Mexico descends into full-blown anarchy, well, you'll have big-time problems.
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Comments :
Jan '11
Re: Drug War Dispatches
Maybe, maybe not. It seems we have no more control over demand than you do over supply. Blame the U.S. if it will help.
Aug '10
Re: Drug War Dispatches
Besides putting the blame away for a moment to focus on the problem. This is one of the intractable situations I remember. My love for both countries complicates objectivity.
Mar '11
Re: Drug War Dispatches
Yeah, maybe. But maybe not.
Your point about supply/demand is my point too. We are brothers in economic theory up to here.
But, if I don't blame the US, then who can I blame? I can't blame Mexicans for starting the drug war, because they didn't start it. I can't even blame them for criminalizing drugs in the first place. That, and the drug war itself, was because of direct US pressure.
Who do you want to blame? Fate?
Like I said, it's OK to accept the destruction of Mexican society if it saves the US from the scourge of drugs, etc etc., but only if you think that US society would be more cohesive without drug use.
But my point is kinda just speculating on the future. If this thing keeps building up, somethings gotta give. The US national security forces don't need the extra pressure on the border that an explosion down here would generate.
Oct '10
Re: Drug War Dispatches
It is a pox on both our houses. Since the American people have turned their backs on God, drug use is merely one of a thousand pathologies (curses) we have invited upon ourselves. Mexico, on the other hand, never fully embraced God, and I do not mean in the sense of being religious, but being immersed in the Western Christian-Jewish mind. Mexico has always had the corruption that we are just really beginning to embrace here.
To put it into balance, however, there is, in Mexico, a respect for the family as a unit that Americans have rapidly thrown away. But, in 10 years of working with the disabled poor in Mexico there is a observation I have to make on the family.
When a child is born into the Mexican family, rarely does the machismo of the Mexican male remain at home. Mama is left as the single mother of a disabled child.
There is a pox upon both our houses. Neither country is worthy of the blessings of God that the USA once enjoyed, and Mexico has never fully embraced.
Mar '11
Re: Drug War Dispatches
So, God makes us use drugs because we turned our backs on Him? I can't get my mind around that right now. Can you help?
Mar '11
Re: Drug War Dispatches
raycon: Since the American people have turned their backs on God, drug use is merely one of a thousand pathologies (curses) we have invited upon ourselves. Mexico […] never fully embraced God, and I do not mean in the sense of being religious, but being immersed in the Western Christian-Jewish mind. Mexico has always had the corruption that we are just really beginning to embrace here.
· Mar 15 at 7:58pm
1. People have been using drugs since before there was an American people who could have turned their backs on god. There is evidence of drug use from neolithic sites. If you want to get religious about it, people turned their backs on god at the garden of Eden. Because people have always used drugs.
2. Mexico has never been "immersed" enough in the "Western Christian-Jewish mind" (whatever that is) for you?
a. The "Western Christian-Jewish mind" took some time, and a lot of pain, before it took root, even in Europe. But, heresy still exists. Heresy is the preservation of the old-time religion. This is much closer to the surface in Mexico than in the US. Is this what you mean by "corruption?"
Jun '10
Re: Drug War Dispatches
Raycon - I will leave it to God to determine who is worthy of His blessings. Attempting to read His mind is rather presumptuous.
I just have one question, for those who want to speculate on an answer -- if America legalizes marijuana, crystal meth, cocaine and all the other narcotics that the cartels in Mexico traffic in, then will they promise to stop beheading people in Mexico and in the United States? And no crossing their fingers behind their backs.
Isn't this the crux of your argument, Roque? That if demand for narcotics is alleviated upon legalization that Mexico's internal strife and violence will end? What will the cartels do when their market disappears? If narcotics are legalized in America then they will probably be manufactured by pharmaceutical companies in America. Where does this leave the cartels when the money is no longer flowing their way? Will this make them happy? They've shown they don't have much of a sense of humor. Maybe they’ll become legitimate businessmen and create their own pharmaceutical companies…except their products will have more of a kick in them.
Edited on Mar 15, 2011 at 8:31pmMar '11
Re: Drug War Dispatches
This sentence is hard to understand as it's written. Do you mean that the Mexican machismo motivates them to abandon their families if they have a disabled child?
To start, what do you mean by machismo?
Next, I hope for your sake that there is another way to interpret what you wrote. Because. This is false. This is a calumny. Prove it or take it back.
May '10
Re: Drug War Dispatches
Roque Nuevo
So, God makes us use drugs because we turned our backs on Him? I can't get my mind around that right now. Can you help?
God didn't make us use drugs, but our abandonment of the principles God gave us has led to our own moral demise as a natural consequence. God didn't give us a bunch of nonsensical arbitrary rules just to be spiteful, so he could directly initiate such punishments as "making us use drugs" if we disobeyed.
Instead, God gave us principles to live by that would be for our own benefit, and when we ignore them, the natural consequences follow.
Does that help? I'm pretty sure that's what raycon believes, not the sick twisted version you present.
May '10
Re: Drug War Dispatches
Roque Nuevo
This sentence is hard to understand as it's written. Do you mean that the Mexican machismo motivates them to abandon their families if they have a disabled child?
To start, what do you mean by machismo?
Next, I hope for your sake that there is another way to interpret what you wrote. Because. This is false. This is a calumny. Prove it or take it back.
I think you're intentionally taking offense and misrepresenting what he's saying. I understood it, though it may have been poorly written.
He's just commenting on how the culture of machismo results in many men abandoning their families and not being good fathers. This is detrimental to children and the whole society.
I know the culture well. We used to joke that you could insult someone's father, and they don't care. But dare say anything bad about their mother, and watch out! That's because their fathers in large part weren't there for them.
May '10
Re: Drug War Dispatches
Chris Deleon
...That's because their fathers in large part weren't there for them.
Unfortunately we don't have much to brag about over said culture of machismo. Our own culture is fast heading in the same direction, at least in the inner cities, and those families that remain intact often have an emotionally absent father, too busy with work at the office to invest in his children.
May '10
Re: Drug War Dispatches
I guess I should stop trying to speak for raycon, but what I understand as "machismo" is this: a sense among men that they have to show off how manly they are, which leads them to do often irrational things to prove their manliness, and sometimes leads them to look down on family life as an inferior "domesticated" state while seeing the single life, especially when bedding multiple women, as the superior "wild" state.
Wikipedia's definition roughly dovetails with this, though it notes that in Mexico it can have other meanings, some positive.
I could give you tons of anecdotal stories about machismo and the crazy and funny things it makes people do. But its most tragic effect is felt on the families, and there's nothing funny about that.
To me, being a real man means being responsible. A real woman is responsible too, but a man has a special responsibility that comes from his physical strength and capability for single-minded focus, drive and determination. Sometimes these traits needs to be tempered by a woman's complementary traits, but machismo will never let the man allow this, as it is seen as weak and as being "domesticated."
Mar '11
Re: Drug War Dispatches
Brian Watt: I just have one question, for those who want to speculate on an answer -- if America legalizes marijuana, crystal meth, cocaine and all the other narcotics that the cartels in Mexico traffic in, then will they promise to stop beheading people here and in the United States? And no crossing their fingers behind their backs.
Isn't this the crux of your argument, Roque? · Mar 15 at 8:28pm
The point of my post was the catastrophe Mexico is enduring, and the US' responsibility for it.
A way out, before it's too late, would be stopping the war on drugs.
I really think it's useless to speculate on what would happen if drugs were legalized, etc etc. Laws should be made, and unmade, according to history and legal principles, such as those found in the US Constitution. They shouldn't be made because you, or I, or anyone wants to achieve a certain result in society, etc etc. That attitude is what got us in this mess to begin with.
May '10
Re: Drug War Dispatches
Now that the thread has been fully taken off topic, I'll try to bring it back.
First, why does it have to be an either/or situation? (Either we fight the war on drugs and have violence in Mexico, or we legalize drugs and have total peace in Mexico.) Why are the other possibilities left out of the picture? Such as the possibility that we're not fighting drugs correctly, or that violence is due to corruption and inability to maintain law and order by the Mexican government? Or other issues, such as U.S. farm subsidies that artificially lower corn prices, driving campesinos in Mexico away from an honest living into desperate circumstances?
The situation is not so simple. As raycon pointed out, both our societies have experienced moral decay, and when that happens no government can fully succeed in putting everything right again. And there are many other factors at play.
To simply legalize drugs is a cop-out, an admission of defeat. It's not a solution.
The real solution is to fight drugs at the same time as we attempt to reform and restore our cultures on both sides of the border.
Mar '11
Re: Drug War Dispatches
Chris Deleon
Roque Nuevo
He's just commenting on how the culture of machismo results in many men abandoning their families and not being good fathers. This is detrimental to children and the whole society.
I know the culture well. We used to joke that you could insult someone's father, and they don't care. But dare say anything bad about their mother, and watch out! That's because their fathers in large part weren't there for them. · Mar 15 at 8:43pm
As far as I can see, the culture of machismo results in men having many different families, if anything. Not in abandoning the families they may already have. I don't see how it could lead to men abandoning disabled children.
Could you name a culture where people don't care if you insult their mother? If that's your definition of "macho," you should take it back to the drawing board and work it up some more.
May '10
Re: Drug War Dispatches
Roque Nuevo
Could you name a culture where people don't care if you insult their mother? If that's your definition of "macho," you should take it back to the drawing board and work it up some more.
The point wasn't that people shouldn't care about insults to their mother, or that the don't in other cultures; the point is that, tragically, they don't care as much about insults to their father. It was a joke we used to make, but it reveals a deep tragedy of the absence of many fathers.
Mar '11
Re: Drug War Dispatches
Chris Deleon:
The real solution is to fight drugs at the same time as we attempt to reform and restore our cultures on both sides of the border. · Mar 15 at 9:15pm
This is a great example of what I said before:
Because what Chris Deleon says is just more of the same ol' same ol' that we've been doing for the last thirty-forty years, with such disastrous results.
"Attempting to restore and reform our cultures" has had thirty-forty years to show some results. Anything. Time to take stock, I say.
"Fighting drugs" has had ditto ditto ditto ditto. Ditto. Ditto ditto.
May '10
Re: Drug War Dispatches
Roque Nuevo
As far as I can see, the culture of machismo results in men having many different families, if anything. Not in abandoning the families they may already have. I don't see how it could lead to men abandoning disabled children.
Again I can't speak entirely for raycon but I understood his use of the word "disabled" to be speaking about the social consequences of abandonment by fathers, not of fathers abandoning already physically disabled children. Unfortunate wording, but that's what I got out of it.
And having multiple families is a recipe for many problems. Jealousy between the various women and their children (half-brothers and half-sisters), instability in the family environment, complicated relationships, not to mention the partial if not full absence of the father.
Jun '10
Re: Drug War Dispatches
Roque Nuevo
Brian Watt:
The point of my post was the catastrophe Mexico is enduring, and the US' responsibility for it.
A way out, before it's too late, would be stopping the war on drugs.
I really think it's useless to speculate on what would happen if drugs were legalized, etc etc. Laws should be made, and unmade, according to history and legal principles, such as those found in the US Constitution. They shouldn't be made because you, or I, or anyone wants to achieve a certain result in society, etc etc. That attitude is what got us in this mess to begin with. · Mar 15 at 9:10pm
You said earlier: "But my point is kinda just speculating on the future."
Apparently there are limits to what we are permitted to speculate on.
The cartels are killing each other, aren't they? If the Mexican and U.S. governments back off on the campaign to fight the cartels, will the violence end?
Laws ARE made to achieve a certain result - in this case order and public safety rather than chaos and people under the influence of narcotics endangering the lives of innocent people.
May '10
Re: Drug War Dispatches
Roque Nuevo
Chris Deleon:
The real solution is to fight drugs at the same time as we attempt to reform and restore our cultures on both sides of the border. · Mar 15 at 9:15pm
This is a great example of what I said before:
Because what Chris Deleon says is just more of the same ol' same ol' that we've been doing for the last thirty-forty years, with such disastrous results.
No we haven't.
Instead we've let our cultures slide further into decay, with the result that the violence has become worse.
I've pointed out to others that straw man arguments are very weak. You try to set up a weak argument and put it into the other person's mouth, then you promptly and easily demolish it. The first problem with that technique is that it is dishonest. You're saying I'm advocating continuing to do what we're doing, when I'm clearly advocating a change of course. The second problem is that you're arguing with yourself.