Don’t Cheer the Koran-Burning Idiot
While I'm here, I thought I'd poll the Ricochetoisie on Jonah Goldberg's post over at NR, which I'll paraphrase as, "Whatever you think of Islam, cheering the burning of its scripture is not a civilized act."
I agree, and moreover would say that if Jones's barbecue justified as an admirable act of literary or religious or civilization criticism—as some sort of speech—then, well, we're basically at the point where our discourse is at the level where it's chacun à son goût, incinerate a Koran, burn Salman Rushdie in effigy, torch the American flag and stomp the ashes, toss Torahs on bonfires, desecrate consecrated hosts, etc. (This is maybe a half-step up from the Phelps people in that he didn't show up at a Muslim Marine's funeral to burn the Koran.)
Again, it's legal, sure, and I wouldn't criminalize it*, especially since I don't want go to prison for carelessly tossing out a copy of Dianetics. And Lindsay Graham is indeed a no-talent [ahem]-clown. But legality isn't really the standard here—it's the cultural norm, what I would think would be the unspoken cringe at burning not only a book, but a book you know many good people consider holy—even if you don't.
I find it depressing and vaguely ominous—if people want to make a hero out of a jackass burning a book they don't like, we're slouching towards Gomorrah faster than I thought. I guess I'll have to look forward to our political parties eventually descending into Nika Riots—I guess they'll be Red & Blue instead of Green & Blue, though the SEIU do have those sharp purple numbers… (I'll have to grab a t-shirt-and-Molotov-cocktail concession.)
So what do y'all think? Is the defense of this guy a little disturbing? (And, yeah, I know, it's the d[euc]ed internet. You can find lunatic, full-throated apologia for anything.) Or are Jonah and I being prissy little [felidae] for shying away from this brave, defiant gesture in a civilizational clash that can only be applauded by free thinkers and free peoples?
*Though, like the question I asked John Yoo about Westboro Baptist, I certainly would consider this within the realm of "fighting words" if you call it speech, or an inciting act if not.
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Comments :
Oct '10
Re: Don’t Cheer the Koran-Burning Idiot
Bill, can you post a link/example of someone who is defending this crazy pastor? Most of the criticism I hear is something like don't blame the act of one nutty pastor for the deaths of UN workers, blame the barbarians in afghanistan for using this as an excuse to murder. Let's not use straw man arguments here please.
and how did the nuts in afghanistan learn about the koran burning? most major news outlets ignored the story including drudge, instapundit. i did not know about the burning until after those animals over there slaughtered the UN personnel.
Edited on Apr 4, 2011 at 11:06pmJul '10
Re: Don’t Cheer the Koran-Burning Idiot
Pastor Jones is the religious equivalent of a Super Bowl streaker.
Re: Don’t Cheer the Koran-Burning Idiot
No. I could Google around, as could you. I take Jonah at his word that he's gotten a bunch of e-mail in that vein, hence the link. It's not a straw man: the U.S. is not consumed with “Islamophobia.” Bias crimes against Jews are, if I'm remembering right, orders of magnitude more numerous than against Muslims, and I have no interest in making any group of people a mascot to brandish in an ostentatious gesture of benevolence on their behalf (thereby demonstrating my superiority to my putatively benighted opponents).
But lots of places—including Ricochet—not-inconsiderable numbers of people argue that Islam is the problem! It's evil! I disagree with that premise but can see where someone who held it passionately might well think Jones's act is an act of defiance against what they consider an aggressive, imperialist, godless, woman-hating…etc. etc. ideology and therefore in itself admirable to a degree outweighing the problematic form of the protest.
I have a strong opinion, but the question is curious, not polemic.
Re: Don’t Cheer the Koran-Burning Idiot
Note: my reply above was to the original, short form of John's comment, which was just the one sentence (with the implicit, rather than explicit, accusation of using a straw man). I don't think I need to add anything on that count, but:
From what I understand, our friend and ally Hamid Karzai talked it up, probably as a way of creating leverage against us. This is par for the course in the area, as, e.g., you had murderous Satanic Verses riots in Pakistan well before the book ever appeared in the area (fomented by the U.S. client Zia ul-Haq to whom we later subcontracted Afghan policy so as not to be evil imperialists–and whose ISI basically built the Taliban).
Dec '10
Re: Don’t Cheer the Koran-Burning Idiot
I commend those who had the capacity to lend a measure credence to what Pastor Jones did by mere mention and chose not to. I think that is the only act in any of this mess that was self sacrificing and worthy of applauding.
By condemning this act, we are only signalling other decent and reasonable people, how reasonable and decent we are. It is a message that only serves to flatter ourselves.
Edited on Apr 4, 2011 at 11:30pmRe: Don’t Cheer the Koran-Burning Idiot
Oh, hey, I was about to close the window with Jonah's post in it, and the first comment therein says:
Re: Don’t Cheer the Koran-Burning Idiot
So there you go.
May '10
Re: Don’t Cheer the Koran-Burning Idiot
Jones is a schmuck, but the emphasis belongs upon the medieval reaction in Afghanistan. They have to get used to Koran burning if they want to join us in modernity. If not, then we should leave them to their own bovine stupidity.
Re: Don’t Cheer the Koran-Burning Idiot
Beasley By condemning this act, we are only signalling other decent and reasonable people, how reasonable and decent we are. It is a message that only serves to flatter ourselves. · Apr 4 at 11:27pm
Edited on Apr 04 at 11:30 pm
Really? It's entirely performative, as the po-mo crowd would say? It's not an attempt to upholding a standard in an of itself? Like if I tell a kid to stop drawing on the floor in the grocery store, I'm only signalling to other responsible adults that I'm a responsible adult? It doesn't reduce and make unacceptable future incidents by creating negative feedback?
I wouldn't have looked at it that way, but…fair enough.
Dec '10
Re: Don’t Cheer the Koran-Burning Idiot
Uma Moore wrote an interesting piece on how This Attach Was Different
Local clerics drove around the city with megaphones yesterday, calling residents to protest the actions of a small group of attention-seeking, bigoted Americans.
Dec '10
Re: Don’t Cheer the Koran-Burning Idiot
Bill Walsh
Beasley By condemning this act, we are only signalling other decent and reasonable people, how reasonable and decent we are. It is a message that only serves to flatter ourselves. · Apr 4 at 11:27pm
Edited on Apr 04 at 11:30 pm
It doesn't reduce and make unacceptable future incidents by creating negative feedback?
I wouldn't have looked at it that way, but…fair enough. · Apr 4 at 11:37pm
I would rephrase to say that all good intentions aside, decrying Koran burning neither changes the indecency of the act, or the likelihood that it will be repeated.
The act was unacceptable the first time, and negative feedback from those who you already disagree with is at best a confirmation and at worst an additional incentive.
And I see what you're saying about kids in the grocery store, but that only works when they're your kids.
I guess it would be good to sort out exactly what our relationship with the Afghanis is.
Edited on Apr 4, 2011 at 11:56pmRe: Don’t Cheer the Koran-Burning Idiot
Beasley
I would rephrase to say that all good intentions aside, decrying Koran burning neither changes the indecency of the act, or the likelihood that it will be repeated.
That said, the act was unacceptable the first time, and negative feedback from those you already disagree with is a best confirmation and at worst further incentive. · Apr 4 at 11:47pm
I'd agree that the decency of the act is not derived from its decrying, but decrying an indecent act is usually considered a moral imperative. But here we reach the philosophical, and we can agree to disagree.
I would argue, however, that socio-cultural norms certainly affect how often or likely acts considered indecent by the broad run of society occur. Look at, say, the occurrence of casual anti-black racist remarks—huge drop over the second half of the twentieth century. In the same time period, sexual profanity has become markedly more acceptable. These are norms that change, at least in part because of reinforcement through condemnation or endorsement. But, again, your mileage may vary.
Your last point gets at what I'm interested in: Negative feedback from those who agree with you. (Con't.)
Jun '10
Re: Don’t Cheer the Koran-Burning Idiot
I don't cheer it, but I understand it. We cannot continue to bow and scrape to these primitives. They are the ones that need to enter this century -- or the second millennium at least and realize you don't cut off heads when you are insulted. Our attention should not be on this man harmlessly exercising his religious freedom, it should be on the barbarians in Islam very harmfully exercising theirs.
Re: Don’t Cheer the Koran-Burning Idiot
(Con't.)
Certainly Jones is not going to be dissuaded by, say, CAIR's boo-hooing about hurt feelings and offense. But what I'm interested in is whether people who might share in Jones's intellectual critique (such that it is) in degree or mere sympathy would say, "No, stop," or if we've reached a point where there is no "too far" in a wide enough minority that the previous unwritten rules against such conduct will wane like those against the various sexual and scatological curses invoked above. Will the broader society disarm its objections in the face of a determined minority?
I realize this is kind of a broad, semi-apocalyptic frame for what's essentially Jones's sideshow, but there's enough by any means necessary-style language out there in general these days (not just on Islam—look at Kos or DU or some Freepers) that I wonder if we're near (or over) a Rubicon. Jonah's post on Jones was what inspired the line of thought, since Islam seems to draw this kind of remark a lot, but the implications are broader, if it's a real phenomenon.
Edited on Apr 5, 2011 at 12:07amOct '10
Re: Don’t Cheer the Koran-Burning Idiot
Is there really anyone, anywhere, defending the Koran-burning act? I'm talking about mainstream adults, not fringe wack-jobs. Has any serious person, or any person seriously, defended the act itself, as opposed to the right to commit the act?
Nov '10
Re: Don’t Cheer the Koran-Burning Idiot
I understand where you're coming from, but Bill's point, as I see it, is that there's a lot of daylight between "bow[ing] and scrap[ing]" and setting fire to their holy book. I don't expect non-Catholics to follow the Pope's orders, but I also don't think it's too much to ask that they not drop the Eucharist in a toilet.
Jul '10
Re: Don’t Cheer the Koran-Burning Idiot
With Ricochet elsewhere sorting through the questions of the location and dimensions and proportions of moderate Islam participating in a secular polity, as opposed to pursuing or operating under Sharia, I think this and other stories of stonings for adultery and sentences of death for apostasy suggests that Afghanistan is near the unhappy end of the continuum.
Personally, I put this down to local malcontents seizing an excuse to sidestep existing tribal arrangements and confront an occupier with an atrocity. Political theater at its most repugnant, but also an unsurprising signal that fragile arrangements with tribes are straining despite the dollar diplomacy.
I don't want to spend a lot of time or words on Jones, because at this remove he is an American outlier. If this were Denmark or France or England or Germany, where Islamist colonization has made far greater penetration and is daily demanding a long list of concessions in exchange for peace, i.e., intimidating the infidels at hand, then Jones would be inevitable. As it stands, Jones seems to have adopted a Bush policy of pre-emptive strike. If it draws more Americans into delving the topic, all the better.
Dec '10
Re: Don’t Cheer the Koran-Burning Idiot
We have seen it happen many times. Why else do we still have affirmative action and farm subsidies? But, in the case of a white male preaching his special variety of Christianity, I doubt it.
I am essentially in agreement with you. I think your illustration of the effectiveness of socio-cultural pressure is spot on. I would simply add religious persecution to anti-black racism on the list of undesired behaviors that have seen dramatic decreases in recent decades.
Jones is an out-lier who has been given more validity than he merits because of the outrageousness of his remarks and the boldness with which he delivers them. That, and he makes good TV.
I don't think the issue is the prevalence of guys like Jones, but our willingness to give him so much free P.R.
In the same way, I think that we only tend address anti-black racism as a societal problem when it inspires a presidential intervention.
I'll grant your moral imperative, but I would question certain ways it is expressed. (cont.)
Edited on Apr 5, 2011 at 1:36amDec '10
Re: Don’t Cheer the Koran-Burning Idiot
(Con't) If decrying bad behavior in public will knowingly give that act more validity and/or notoriety, is it still our duty to speak out publicly? Does that hold even when our silence has the power to quash it?
I also think comparing the occupiers of the dregs of online comment sections to a marginal figure like Jones, overlooks the influence of anonymity on the web. If the kid in Star Wars pajamas, blogging from his parent's basement had the conviction to speak on his street corner, what he wrote in the comments section of Kos I would be more concerned. However, as things stand I'm not too worried.
Unlike those who expressed such fright and indignation over the tone of public discourse after the Tuscon shooting, I think the excessive use of inflammatory language only muffles it's impact.
The more pervasive by any means necessary-language is, the less concerned I am that it will lead to any kind of action, at least in this country.
Edited on Apr 5, 2011 at 1:28amOct '10
Re: Don’t Cheer the Koran-Burning Idiot
Really? That's a strange, or at least ineffectual, morality that requires the mere expression of an opinion. Now I can see someone proposing a morality that enjoins an individual from giving offence (although that's pretty nannyish right there).But a philosophy that supports freedom of speech but makes it a 'moral imperative' to 'decry' the speech kind of wants to have it both ways.