Does the Left Support Incest?
Columbia University professor David Epstein, below, was recently arrested and charged with incest for having an affair with his 24-year old daughter.
But a la the Roman Polanski rape rape affair, the left has been quick to vindicate the professor's repulsive behavior. In the Canadian weekly Macleans, another professor, Todd Pettigrew, jumps to Epstein's defense:
If consenting adults are free to do whatever they like in the bedroom, why is incest wrong? After all, most people now acknowledge that it is not for the state or even society in general to make judgements about people’s sexual preferences and choices. If you’re an adult, and it works for you, go for it. Right?
Do you think Pettigrew would be as nonchalant if the case involved a couple of hicks from Alabama?
Anyhow, Pettigrew goes on to make this absurd argument:
And even if there is a natural revulsion to incest, clearly that revulsion is not universal or we wouldn’t be having this argument. And even still, if doing disgusting things turns you on, why is that my business?
Isn't the fact that we have a "natural revulsion" to something pretty good proof that it is universally and morally wrong? Consider the case of pedophilia. Or rape. We have a very good reason to have a "natural revulsion" to these acts: they're undeniably immoral.
And yet, in Pettigrew's relativisitic world, nothing can be undeniably immoral:
In any case, as one committed to reason, I have to look beyond whatever ick factor there is and ask what the rational argument would be against incest. In short, if Professor Epstein and his daughter want to get it on, who are we to say no? Even if it’s distasteful, does that make it immoral?...
The whole tone of this argument [that incest can ruin families] sounds suspicious, because critics of sexuality of all kinds like to argue that it ruins families and destroys lives. Indeed, some claim...that homosexuality is bad for families, and the same assertion has been made about pornography. But even if that were true about incest, it may follow that it is a bad idea, but it doesn’t make it necessarily immoral or worthy of prosecution. After all, money is a “notoriously incendiary dynamic,” but while family members doing business may be unwise, it is not immoral or illegal.
I wonder if there is any act or thought that Pettigrew would call immoral. He has used the words "unwise" and "distasteful" to describe incest--but you could use those same words to describe adultery and theft.
What is the missing element that separates an "unwise" and "distasteful" act or thought from an "immoral" one?
The way I see it, if the act or thought results in the degradation of your human dignity, or (and especially) the human dignity of another person, then it is immoral. Do "disgusting things" that are "unwise," "icky" and which "turn you on," which is how Pettigrew describes incest, violate one's human dignity? I think they do.
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Nov '10
Re: Does the Left Support Incest?
Oboy.
This is going to be a hot thread.
You better brace yourselves because I am coming in with all guns blazing...
Sep '10
Re: Does the Left Support Incest?
Emily Esfahani Smith, Ed. :
Isn't the fact that we have a "natural revulsion" to something pretty good proof that it is universally and morally wrong?
I wear my incestophobia like a badge of honor.
I think the point is that its okay for the left do engage in any behavior under the sun, and not be judged for it, because they don't promote moral standards of any kind. Conservatives are all preachy and stuff, so naturally any human shortcoming of theirs is pure hypocrisy. Or something like that.
Re: Does the Left Support Incest?
Lady Kurobara: Oboy.
This is going to be a hot thread.
You better brace yourselves because I am coming in with all guns blazing... · Dec 21 at 7:48am
Here's something else to chew over: "If homosexuality is ok why is incest wrong?"
Sep '10
Re: Does the Left Support Incest?
If you saw The Right Stuff.
Professor Pettigrew is like a test pilot who is out to push the edge of the envelope with his arguments, the next test pilot will work on why incest is OK for some children (as long as they consent), and then the next as to why coercion is OK if it is for some greater good.
Nov '10
Re: Does the Left Support Incest?
Yeah, this happened right around the time of that drug bust, but I figured there was already enough bad stuff about Columbia in the news. Didn't wanna bring it up...
Re: Does the Left Support Incest?
Oh, it's not that they support incest. They're just suspicious of anyone who seems quick to condemn it. Why, the flexible, questing mind would pause to examine the condemnatory reaction, and wonder how these social strictures arise. I mean, isn't that fascinating, really? It would be great if someone wrote a book about it, and then was interviewed on Terry Gross's show, and I could listen to it while jogging or something.
Anyway, people who just make a snap-judgment are probably judgmental about a lot of things, and that's bad. They might be right about incest but they're probably wrong other things. Okay, I'm off to Whole Foods. Where's my canvas bag?
Re: Does the Left Support Incest?
Mark Belling Fan
Emily Esfahani Smith, Ed. :
Isn't the fact that we have a "natural revulsion" to something pretty good proof that it is universally and morally wrong?
because they don't promote moral standards of any kind. · Dec 21 at 7:59am
Right, except when they're preaching the gospel of global warming, and universal health care, feminism, etc....!
May '10
Re: Does the Left Support Incest?
Forget it Emily, it's Columbia.
Re: Does the Left Support Incest?
James Lileks: Oh, it's not that they support incest. They're just suspicious of anyone who seems quick to condemn it. Why, the flexible, questing mind would pause to examine the condemnatory reaction, and wonder how these social strictures arise. I mean, isn't that fascinating, really? It would be great if someone wrote a book about it, and then was interviewed on Terry Gross's show, and I could listen to it while jogging or something.
Anyway, people who just make a snap-judgment are probably judgmental about a lot of things, and that's bad. They might be right about incest but they're probably wrong other things. Okay, I'm off to Whole Foods. Where's my canvas bag? · Dec 21 at 8:10am
Let me guess, you're getting sushi for lunch?
I think you'd like this site/book, especially since you managed to capture its essence in under 200 words.
Nov '10
Re: Does the Left Support Incest?
"Does the Left Support Incest?'
Absolutely.
It is merely part of their plan to destroy America's moral compass. And they know that the most effective way to wreck a society is to unleash the full, destructive power of unrestrained sex — by encouraging people to surrender to their darkest instincts.
The sexual agenda of the Left can summed up in two words:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paraphilia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polymorphous_perversity
They want to remove all restrictions on sexual behavior. And I do mean all. If you are a 60-year-old freak and you want to take your 8-year-old twin granddaughters down to the local mall for a hot three-some in the food court at high noon, go for it! If it feels good, do it, right? Sensory pleasure justifies everything. This is not only perverse, but infantile.
Why does the Left wish to do this? Because people living in moral decay and social chaos will be powerless against the Left's political agenda — spiritually incapable of mounting any effective resistance.
And, not incidentally, it gives cover to people like David Epstein and Roman Polanski, who would love to practice their perversions openly.
May '10
Re: Does the Left Support Incest?
Welll, at least he doesn't look like a total perv or anything.
[standing out of the way as Lady Kurosawa grabs her guns on this one]
Nov '10
Re: Does the Left Support Incest?
The Left is fond of excusing perverted behavior with the question (meant to be rhetorical): "Who does it hurt?" But, in fact, it is not rhetorical at all.
Let us look at a particularly icky perversion: good old necrophilia.
Suppose someone is caught "abusing a corpse" down at the funeral parlor. The Left immediately rushes to the defense: "The corpse is beyond all harm. Who does it hurt?"
First of all, everyone associated with the perv — his family, his friends and his co-workers — will now feel shame at sharing his company. His mother will spend the rest of her life hearing the question: "Isn't your son that guy who...?"
More perniciously, those people may start avoiding each other's company, in order to avoid any possibility of the topic coming up. And so the bonds of society begin to unravel.
Plus, every family who ever patronised the funeral parlor will now wonder whether their loved one was violated before going into the box.
As for the corpse...
The dead are utterly helpless — totally at our mercy. Abusing a corpse is an outrage against common decency — not just perverted, but profoundly uncivilized.
So, who does it hurt?
EVERYONE.
May '10
Re: Does the Left Support Incest?
Does anyone else feel bad about the use of "Professor Epstein" in this great dismal delve? I feel better now about all those Sun-Times headlines about "Kennedy Smith Faces Rape Allegations".
Jun '10
Re: Does the Left Support Incest?
The next step is for lefty pundits to purge the word "incest" from the lexicon and replace it with a euphemism. We could do a Ricochet pool regarding when this will occur. My guess is that somewhere it already has.
Jul '10
Re: Does the Left Support Incest?
I could see how his daughter couldn't resist. He's smokin' hot.
By the way, folks, Switzerland is considering legalizing incest. The upper house of the Swiss parliament has drafted a bill to repeal incest laws, calling them obsolete.
May '10
Re: Does the Left Support Incest?
The left is torn on this issue because to condemn it puts them on the same side as some snotty superstitious religious Christian nut job. (Much in the same way they are torn in polygamy because they might have to agree with a fundamentalist Morman.)
After all, isn't inner breeding acceptable if your last name is Roosevelt? (OK that's a stretch - they were only 5th cousins).
Nov '10
Re: Does the Left Support Incest?
This thread brings us inevitably back to Gay Marriage.
I oppose Gay Marriage for two reasons.
First of all, marriage as we know it is based on the assumption that the married couple is a breeding unit (i.e., a man and a woman). I do not oppose civil unions and I believe that gay couples should have every legal and financial protection that those unions offer. But Marriage is for the baby-makers (and no, it does not count if a lesbian has herself artificially inseminated).
Even so, I might be persuaded to support Gay Marriage if I thought the issue would end there. But that brings us to the second reason:
I am absolutely convinced that the Left is using Gay Marriage as a "wedge issue." Once they win general acceptance for Gay Marriage, the next issue will inevitably rear its head — probably polygamy and formal group marriage. After that, who knows? It leads straight to the Polymorphous Perversity I cited in Post10.
For the record, a significant number of gays oppose Gay Marriage. A radical gay film-maker explained why: "I don't want to be 'mainstreamed.' Part of the fun of being gay is being different."
Dec '10
Re: Does the Left Support Incest?
Pettigrew tells you everything you need to know about the intellectual Left here:
"The whole tone of this argument [that incest can ruin families] sounds suspicious, because critics of sexuality of all kinds like to argue that it ruins families and destroys lives. Indeed, some claim...that homosexuality is bad for families, and the same assertion has been made about pornography. But even if that were true about incest, it may follow that it is a bad idea, but it doesn’t make it necessarily immoral or worthy of prosecution."
You see, for Pettigrew, the issue is not whether incest ruins families and destroys lives, but whether declaring it immoral would start society on the slippery slope to declaring homosexuality and pornography immoral. Once we brand the Epsteins père and fille as immoral, it won't be long before we brand whatever it is that Pettigrew likes to do in his spare time as immoral -- and we can't have that, can we?
You know, in the good old days, we were content to have our perversions in secret and we had the good sense to feel shame. Nowadays, however, we apparently demand universal acceptance.
Dec '10
Re: Does the Left Support Incest?
Which is why they'll equivocate and make exceptions depending on the intentions, rationalizations, and politics of the parties involved.
True blue libertarians, OTOH, are more consistent, if they really are libertarian in their thinking. Two consenting adults and all that.
Sep '10
Re: Does the Left Support Incest?
Next stop, cannibalism. Think I'm being overly dramatic? I'll quote you Joe Sobran a little later if you're curious.