Divided by a common language (Pt 207)
Here's what Dr Lorentz said about the latest Radio Free Delingpole podcast with Toby Young.
James, you and Toby spent a fair while bemoaning the asymmetry of the special relationship, going so far as to suggest that people in the US are unaware of this relationship. Humorous as I found your banter, I take exception.
Over the years, I’ve experienced the special relationship first hand. In official dealings between government officials (at low levels), there’s definitely a connection with the UK that exists with no other nation. Whether it’s the MoD, MI5, or MI6, there's a remarkable amount of cooperation and trust. I’ve always felt most welcome in your country in a way that I've not experienced elsewhere. Undoubtedly the common language and culture are a big part of this. Whatever the cause, the feeling is mutual.
Obviously this is nice to hear. But I don't think Toby and I ever doubted it. We love America and in our hearts we know that America loves us and our country too. So that exception you took, my dear Dr Lorentz, was wasted exception. And it's not that I'm berating you here: you're American. What's happening in this instance, I believe, is a classic case of Things About The British That Americans Don't Quite Get.
The Thing here is: English self-deprecation. It's what we do, all the time. If we've got something to shout about, we don't shout about it. Maybe it's a legacy of having spent two centuries ruling one third of the world: when the atlas is colored pink you really don't need to bang on about how wonderful you are. Or maybe it's not that, maybe our rain-sodden island status has turned us over the centuries into a bunch of self-hating, miserable sods who can't see the good in anything. I don't know the cause. All I do know is that putting ourselves down comes to us as naturally as breathing. Or loathing the French. Or missing vital penalties in World Cup football matches. Or....well, you get the idea.
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Jun '11
Re: Divided by a common language (Pt 207)
Or, to combine the two, putting down the French!
Jun '10
Re: Divided by a common language (Pt 207)
Hang in there James. WE LOVE YOU AND ENGLAND TOO. My bloodlines are about three-quarters English with a touch of Welsh thrown in. The other quarter is Danish/Norwegian [speaking of which, you're a bit behind on the Danegeld payment].
Two of my three favorite politicians of the twentieth-century are Brits (Lady Thatcher and Churchill--Reagan belongs with them). The greatest literature ever written is English (Dickens, Trollope, Eliot, Conrad [I know, he started out Polish, but was all in as a Brit], among others).
Few things match the performance of England between May 1940 and early 1942.
My Dad spent a lot of time in England in late 1943 and 1944 before crossing the channel (and he liked the English a lot--the weather and food, not so much). I've always felt that in the end, it might come down to us, Britain, Canada, Australia, and NZ. Our relationship with Britain should remain our best relationship.
Yes, English culture is a mess. America has a lot of things going for it, but let's face it, American culture isn't exactly flourishing. We're just a decade or so behind the curve.
Sep '10
Re: Divided by a common language (Pt 207)
English self-deprecation, hmmm. James, is this what you had in mind?
Song of Patriotic Prejudice (Flanders & Swann)
Nevertheless, your point is well taken. I recall reading that Gordon Brown had been received rather stiffly by Mr. Obama a couple of years ago and thinking that the latter did not appreciate the special relationship at all.
By the way, I listened to Richard Bacon's program. Indeed, you did pwn him. All your base...
Edited on March 24, 2012 at 9:04pmFeb '11
Re: Divided by a common language (Pt 207)
James, I find your podcast most enjoyable and edifying when you avoid the messy fray of the Republican primary. I much prefer your discussions of English civil society, public education, messy parliamentary politics and Cameron-bashing. So please ignore the dispiriting state of Yankee politics and save your vitriol for those rotten watermelons.
I also feel compelled to apologize for your ill treatment in the comments section over the whole "legalize it" post/debate/podcast. While your arguments for legalization are not entirely persuasive (though I too desire the reform of our nihilistic drug laws), I wish that some of our members wouldn't "flame" you just for introducing the idea.
Sep '10
Re: Divided by a common language (Pt 207)
I second this suggestion.
Dec '10
Re: Divided by a common language (Pt 207)
A couple of years ago, I read something on the Telegraph (UK) blog complaining about how Hollywood always makes their supervillains British, proving the bias of Americans against England. The author went so far as to cite Alan Rickman in "Die Hard" as a prime example.
Three observations:
- Hollywood likes British supervillains for the same reason we like British heroes and boffins: the preconception Americans hold is that well-educated Englishmen are smarter than well-educated Americans.
- Note that Americans think that ONLY the British can fulfill certain heroic roles. There were a couple of attempts to create an American James Bond (Matt Helm, Derek Flint), but these had no staying power.
- In "Die Hard," Alan Rickman played Hans Gruber, a German, for heaven's sake. How is that evidence of American bias or stereotyping of the BRITISH?
Self-deprecation can be charming. When it turns into self-pity, it's pitiable.
Jun '10
Re: Divided by a common language (Pt 207)
drlorentz
I second this suggestion. · 14 minutes ago
Me too. Yes, our nomination process is a mess. But I really like your podcast when you talk about how things in England and Europe are way worse. We may be illiterate troglodytes, but if you can make us feel just a bit better than the Brits (or especially those Eurocrats), then you've done your job.
Jun '10
Re: Divided by a common language (Pt 207)
Stuart Creque:
- Hollywood likes British supervillains for the same reason we like British heroes and boffins: the preconception Americans hold is that well-educated Englishmen are smarter than well-educated Americans.
- Note that Americans think that ONLY the British can fulfill certain heroic roles. There were a couple of attempts to create an American James Bond (Matt Helm, Derek Flint), but these had no staying power.
James: Stuart's post caused me to ponder another issue. Starting with Buchan, then Ambler, you've always written the best spy novels. For years, I thought John Le Carre may have been the greatest writer in the world. Yes, I know he's always been a leftie, but the man could write. But about four books ago, his undying hatred of all things American and Western was the only thing left in his books. I haven't been able to even make it through the last two. What happened?
Re: Divided by a common language (Pt 207)
@stuart I agree that self-pity is most unattractive. I personally love the idea that we Brits always play villains. It's also very much my view that when portraying almost any period of history (eg Romans) it is absolutely essential that the characters are all played by classically trained English actors. Romans with American accents seems so wrong, somehow.
I think what we do get rightfully shirty about is when we feel our glory is stolen or where credit is not given: eg Spielberg pretty much making out that we were insignificant on D-Day; that movie about the subs where it Americans shown capturing an Enigma machine when it was in fact us....
Re: Divided by a common language (Pt 207)
Oh, and to those of you who've asked me not to comment on the GOP primaries - may I thank you profusely for relieving me of a terrible burden. I find it so depressing seeing what a mess you guys are making of things and I have nothing to say which could possibly bring you cheer. Plus, I'm coming at it from a position of near-total ignorance. Your advice MUCH appreciated.
Oct '10
Re: Divided by a common language (Pt 207)
I'm either a cynic or a realist, but you all are getting lost in gauzy abstractions. The UK is special only in that it's among the last potential bastions of free-thinking, independence-minded, market–oriented individualists in Europe. Of those areas with such potential, the UK is the most significant to the US. Most of Europe is beyond hope demographically, spiritually and ideologically. If we Americans were cleaver, we’d be running covert influence operations against our ‘special relationship’ pals, trying desperately to bolster the few reliably useful elements in the society. I’d give it a 30% chance of success, and that’s for a well-funded and skillfully executed operation lasting one to three generations. Sadly, we’re not that cleaver. Or we’re too complacent and myopic. Or we’re some combination of all those deformities. But let’s get past the bromide: there are no special relationships, only special interests and unique opportunities for which close mutual cooperation serves both parties. We use the language of ‘specialness’ because our more substantive motivations are in accord. If that alignment of interests falters, virtually overnight the relationship will lose its current 'special' character.
Apr '11
Re: Divided by a common language (Pt 207)
Stuart Creque: A couple of years ago, I read something on the Telegraph (UK) blog complaining about how Hollywood always makes their supervillains British, proving the bias of Americans against England. The author went so far as to cite Alan Rickman in "Die Hard" as a prime example.
Three observations:
- Hollywood likes British supervillains for the same reason we like British heroes and boffins: the preconception Americans hold is that well-educated Englishmen are smarter than well-educated Americans.
- Note that Americans think that ONLY the British can fulfill certain heroic roles. There were a couple of attempts to create an American James Bond (Matt Helm, Derek Flint), but these had no staying power.
- In "Die Hard," Alan Rickman played Hans Gruber, a German, for heaven's sake. How is that evidence of American bias or stereotyping of the BRITISH?
Self-deprecation can be charming. When it turns into self-pity, it's pitiable. · 60 minutes ago
I thought they would complain about Simon Cowell's role on American Idol.
Dec '10
Re: Divided by a common language (Pt 207)
Sorry, James, but you are not relieved of the responsibility. I thoroughly enjoy your commentaries on the GOP mess, especially as I find them hopelessly off. It is exactly that askance view, complete with pessimism, that cheers me up! If I thought you were right, well then I would just find it depressing, but as it stands, I find your comments on the American political scene uplifting! You are the anti-Steyn, cutting with a foam-rubber sword.
May '10
Re: Divided by a common language (Pt 207)
James - You Brits not only make great villains in this world, you make the greatest villains in next one, too. Forget America. Andy Hamilton is the Great Satan!
Oct '10
Re: Divided by a common language (Pt 207)
I think what you are is cynically mistaken. If a good many people in both countries, including many in positions of power, feel a deep bond between them due to sharing a language, a long tangled history, values, etc., I would say that that qualifies as 'special'. Putting it in scare quotes doesn't alter the fact.
Dec '10
Re: Divided by a common language (Pt 207)
The reason the Brits always play the villain is because the Brit actors are just so fabulous at it. Rickman in all of his guises. Jason Isaacs in The Patriot & Harry Potter movies. Anthony Hopkins in Silence Of The Lambs. As an (extremely) amateur actor I simply stand in awe of these guys.
By the way, playing the villain is by far the most fun thing an actor can do. And anyone who would doubt that Anthony Hopkins is quite possibly the greatest actor ever... let me give you two roles: Hannibal Lechter (Silence Of The Lambs) and C.S. Lewis (Shadowlands).
Edited on March 25, 2012 at 1:04amJun '10
Re: Divided by a common language (Pt 207)
The Great Adventure!
By the way, playing the villain is by far the most fun thing an actor can do. And anyone who would doubt that Anthony Hopkins is quite possibly the greatest actor ever... let me give you two roles: Hannibal Lechter (Silence Of The Lambs) and C.S. Lewis (Shadowlands).
After reading Silence of the Lambs, I took a pass on the movie, but Hopkins' performance in Shadowlands was marvelous. Let me also add his performance The Remains of the Day. Awesome.
Dec '10
Re: Divided by a common language (Pt 207)
James Delingpole:
I think what we do get rightfully shirty about is when we feel our glory is stolen or where credit is not given: eg Spielberg pretty much making out that we were insignificant on D-Day; that movie about the subs where it Americans shown capturing an Enigma machine when it was in fact us....
That's what happens when American make movies for Americans: they prefer to believe that Britain was as helpless as the European continent in WWII until the Yanks arrived. We don't want to hear about The Battle of Britain, or the Dam Busters, or Agent Zig-Zag, because these undercut the "we saved your butts" meme. (Note that the only reason the Bridge Over The River Kwai fell in the movie was because of the heroic actions of the reluctant American. I have no idea if there were any Americans involved in taking down any real bridges in Burma, but thank God David Lean and his blacklisted American screenwriters made Shears an American instead of the British commando he was in the novel - no one in the USA would ever have seen the film.)
Dec '10
Re: Divided by a common language (Pt 207)
Stuart Creque
That's what happens when American make movies for Americans: they prefer to believe that Britain was as helpless as the European continent in WWII until the Yanks arrived. We don't want to hear about The Battle of Britain, or the Dam Busters, or Agent Zig-Zag, because these undercut the "we saved your butts" meme. (Note that the only reason the Bridge Over The River Kwai fell in the movie was because of the heroic actions of the reluctant American. I have no idea if there were any Americans involved in taking down any real bridges in Burma, but thank God David Lean and his blacklisted American screenwriters made Shears an American instead of the British commando he was in the novel - no one in the USA would ever have seen the film.) · 21 minutes ago
Wait...what? The Brits fought in WWII?
Apr '11
Re: Divided by a common language (Pt 207)
hi James, I especially enjoyed Toby's imitation of a Welsh accent. Reminded me of Terry Jones (another Welshman I believe) my own ancestry is Welsh on my mother's side but i didn't really have a feel for what a welsh accent sounded like. and I've even seen How Green Was My Valley :)