Diversity Board Recommends Women to the Front Line
Just a question to ponder for all the parents out there.
Are you ready for your daughter to face a Taliban fighter in a hand to hand confrontation ?
Do you think that our country should ask women soldiers to crawl into a foxhole and facedown the enemies in firefights ?
Isn't a society only as good as it treats it's women ?
Most of the decisions that have been taken in the gender integration of the armed forces have been hotly debated. But they look like a "tempest in a teapot" when compared to the imagery elicited by the picture of a young American girl who has just been captured by a group of hardened Taliban or Al Qaeda warriors.
Did any of our Ricochetti sign on to support a Defense Department that would seriously consider this option as a progessive move to provide more diversity to the armed forces.
Equal opportunity at defending our country according to your abilities is a noble thing.
Equal opportunity in death is quite another. Women protect the children, men protect the whole family and the country. How do we so callously refute thousands of years of behaviour, tradition, and structure ?
Of course, they won't be asking the men who actually do the fighting.
What do we make of this ?
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Comments :
Re: Diversity Board Recommends Women to the Front Line
No one takes equality of opportunity for women more seriously than I do. And everything in my being reads this news and thinks it the most perverse idea imaginable.
Nov '10
Re: Diversity Board Recommends Women to the Front Line
I'm ok with it. Canada has women on the front lines; three have been killed (one in combat, two by IED's).
The question isn't about diversity, it's about getting the best people in place to do the job. Stereotyping might at times be useful, but when it comes down to chosing who is, or is not, best fit to a task, that decision must be based on the individual and his or her characteristics alone.
Jun '10
Re: Diversity Board Recommends Women to the Front Line
The Israeli military used women in the trenches and found 1) their limited upper body strength put them in grave danger, which imperiled missions, and 2) when women in the front lines are in danger men's instincts take over and the men try to save or otherwise protect the women, which usually means the mission is screwed, never mind imperiled. Women in combat is a very, very bad Idea. Fortunately, it is also an idea that will never survive contact with the enemy for the simple reason that the women will either be killed quickly or taken hostage and gang raped by the enemy before being killed slowly or otherwise rendered ineffective as fighters. This is feminism run amok, and many good persons will eventually die proving the stupidity of this notion. Thinking of this sort is the reason I hate liberals.
Jun '10
Re: Diversity Board Recommends Women to the Front Line
HalifaxCB: I'm ok with it. Canada has women on the front lines; three have been killed (one in combat, two by IED's).
The question isn't about diversity, it's about getting the best people in place to do the job. Stereotyping might at times be useful, but when it comes down to chosing who is, or is not, best fit to a task, that decision must be based on the individual and his or her characteristics alone. · Jan 15 at 9:56am
What Canada is doing is suicidal, we don't know it yet because we haven't been in a real war since Korea. The battle field is no place to work out equality issues. This is nonsense on stilts.
Jun '10
Re: Diversity Board Recommends Women to the Front Line
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO.
With apologies to HalifaxCB, we require more physically of our Soldiers than Canada does of hers. Combat arms is not the place for women, for the same reason it's not the place for weak men: physical strength. I've dealt several times with female medics who could not physically perform their jobs in combat because they lacked the physical strength to do so. I have no problem with women flying combat aviation, or drones, or doing any other job where physical size and strength are irrelevant; the more integrated the better! But infantry, artillery, armor, and SF are off limits.
Jun '10
Re: Diversity Board Recommends Women to the Front Line
For anyone who cares Kara Spears Hultgreen has already paid with her life trying to prove political correctness on a US carrier deck. The official navy report claims engine failure as the cause of her death while the MIR claims pilot error. Based on the descriptions of the crash that I have read it looks like pilot error to me. What remains as an unanswered question is did the navy push her into the Tomcat too quickly in order to prove PC thinking, The answer would depend on your personal political proclivities, but to me it was a navy SNAFU all the way. Kara Hultgreen died trying to prove gender equality!
Edited on Jan 15, 2011 at 10:58amJun '10
Re: Diversity Board Recommends Women to the Front Line
Possibly the best line of the year.
Re: Diversity Board Recommends Women to the Front Line
Casey Taylor: NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO.
With apologies to HalifaxCB, we require more physically of our Soldiers than Canada does of hers. Combat arms is not the place for women, for the same reason it's not the place for weak men: physical strength.
If it were just that, I'd say--show me you can lift as much heavy weight as a man who's qualified to do the job, and I'm okay with it. The Bell Curve won't be the same, but some women will be fine. But it's not just that. We need have no debate about nature versus nurture here, it's beside the point: The evidence is overwhelming that young women in our culture (and in every culture) generally suck at being violent. If it hasn't dawned on you that young men are overwhelmingly more inclined to physical aggression than young women, you've been living in complete isolation from your species. And there's no reasonable test you could give beforehand to figure out which women are truly on the end of the Bell Curve here.
Jun '10
Re: Diversity Board Recommends Women to the Front Line
Casey Taylor, I would add that you do not allow for the innate aggression necessary to fly combat aircraft. Men tend to aggression and are more easily turned into killers than women, look at the criminal record if you need proof. There is a huge difference between being able to fly and being able to kill while flying. I once talked to a navy fighter pilot who flew in Viet Nam. He was by nature taciturn but after a time he grew to trust me and opened up a little. When he finally got around to discussing flying in Nam a real wistful look appeared in his eyes and he admitted that he absolutely loved flying in Viet Nam. He prefixed his response by saying he didn't want me to consider him nuts, but the reason he loved flying in Viet Nam was that it was the only place in the world at the time where he could "really fly." According to him no one cared if you came in with a bent wing of tree branches glued to the wings provided that you landed safely. Casey, my friend, that's aggressive!
Jun '10
Re: Diversity Board Recommends Women to the Front Line
Claire, it appears I was writing while you were posting. Normally I would not elaborate on your post as mine is a repetition. The only thing this makes me wish is that our conversations were face to face. Perhaps someday.
Re: Diversity Board Recommends Women to the Front Line
You said it better. But yes, we agree perfectly.
Nov '10
Re: Diversity Board Recommends Women to the Front Line
Claire - you are being rather inconsistent in your use of the bell curve analogy. Outliers are acceptable on the strength issue, but only the central tendency should be considered on the aggression one. How do you reconcile that (without retreating into post-modernism)?
As for being in isolation from one's species, well, not unless Canadians are a different species from Americans, but then again, I'm one of those as well. But what I find really amusing is the similarity betwen the arguments used here against women in the military and those against fathers being single parents.
Edited on Jan 15, 2011 at 11:56amJun '10
Re: Diversity Board Recommends Women to the Front Line
Claire, Cas, I concede your points --- to a point. As it supports my argument, I won't quibble, except to say that there is a wide mental gulf that separates the violent action of pilots/air crews and naval gunnery centers and that of the man on the ground. 'Aggressive' is not the same as 'killer'; you don't have to be a killer to press a button, but you most certainly do to shoot or cut a man to death.
Sep '10
Re: Diversity Board Recommends Women to the Front Line
Bad idea. By the way, when will 18 year old girls have to sign up for selective service like the boys do?
Re: Diversity Board Recommends Women to the Front Line
I'm actually not sure what to think here, objectively. However, flownover threw this out, at least partially, to "parents." I can honestly say that I feel equal amounts of pain imagining my son or daughter(s) in combat. I get a sick pit in my stomach. It's not less of a pit when I think it's my son. I also don't particularly see, at this point, how my son has instincts or strength superior to my daughter(s). They're all young, however. Perhaps I can't see them in that way. What do other parents think? Perhaps a mother's love is blinding.
Re: Diversity Board Recommends Women to the Front Line
HalifaxCB: Claire - you are being rather inconsistent in your use of the bell curve analogy. Outliers are acceptable on the strength issue, but only the central tendency should be considered on the aggression one. How do you reconcile that (without retreating into post-modernism)?
As for being in isolation from one's species, well, not unless Canadians are a different species from Americans, but then again, I'm one of those as well. But what I find really amusing is the similarity betwen the arguments used here against women in the military and those against fathers being single parents. · Jan 15 at 11:29am
Edited on Jan 15 at 11:56 am
You can figure out who the uncommonly strong women are in a very easy way: "Here, lift that. Run there. Run back. Okay, you did it as fast as that guy did without passing out. You're in." Measuring the killer instinct would be a little trickier. "Here, shoot him dead ... " No, you really couldn't devise an ethical test, could you? Maybe you could find a proxy measure, but I can't think how it would work.
Jun '10
Re: Diversity Board Recommends Women to the Front Line
Interesting event at Starbucks yesterday. A woman and man walk in, both by their looks present as mentally challenged, to use the most neutral term I know. Typical of Starbucks about equal numbers of men and women are sitting around drinking coffee and chatting. The male of the entering couple becomes loud and verbally abusive to the female. Almost instantly four or five guys jump to their feet and without a word spoken among them surround the abusive male. Nothing is said or done after this initial response, but the abusive male desists and the entering couple withdraw. Here's what's interesting about the response: The male's were on their feet and ready, the women even those closest to the disruption didn't even turn to look at the loud aggressor. Odd thing is that on her way out the door the woman subjected to the abuse felt she had to make explanations to the passive women. The lesson here is that the guys were ready to duke it out if necessary, while the women seemed intimidated. I am certain that the situation was diffused by the men, even though no one spoke a single word.
May '10
Re: Diversity Board Recommends Women to the Front Line
I fell asleep (well, passed out, to be honest) after three words: Diversity Board Recommends
After that point it's merely a parlor game as to guessing how wrong they are. Jesus Christ on Roller Skates, why does the military have a Diversity Board? Let's move that to the front of military spending without which we can do.
May '10
Re: Diversity Board Recommends Women to the Front Line
Casey Taylor
Possibly the best line of the year.
Leave "nonsense" alone, he's a good guy.
Is there any empirical evidence demonstrating the effectiveness of women in combat units? I'm won over by the argument from physiology: they are physically weaker and less aggressive.
Jun '10
Re: Diversity Board Recommends Women to the Front Line
There is a skateboard/BMX bike bowl in a large park not a two blocks from my home. One day I was there with my daughter, who was then at the age where she was showing her first interest in boys. Together we were standing on the concrete verge of the bowl when a kid on a BMX bike flies out of the bowl, rises into the air perhaps ten or twelve feet, at which point he does a full summersault backwards. He lands the full 360 backflip on the rear wheel of his BMX bike. The front wheel never touches the ground. For a breath or two he holds the bike on the rear wheel before he turns it around by some practiced motion of his hips and legs and dashes back down the bowl’s wall and races across to do an encore on the other side of the bowl. There are two things that are remarkable about this park: 1) there is no admission charge so there are no barriers to enter, save bike and board, and 2) I have never seen a girl doing anything other than watching the boys stunting.