Digging a Deeper Hole
David Frum writes:
(CNN) -- Last week, I joined the board of a new organization to oppose marijuana legalization: Smart Approaches to Marijuana. The group is headed by former U.S. Rep. Patrick Kennedy…
Oh dear.
In no particular order, marijuana prohibition is a moral disaster, a practical failure, a colossal waste of public funds, a destroyer of lives, a gift to criminals, an insult to the notion of individual responsibility, and a brutal assault on the idea of limited government.
It’s grotesquely appropriate, in a way, that this new group is headed by Patrick Kennedy.
The Huffington Post reports:
Kennedy admits to having smoked pot but also said that, as an asthma sufferer, he "found other ways to get high."
In 2006, he crashed his car into a security barrier in Washington, D.C., and soon after sought treatment for drug dependency. He said he was addicted to the pain reliever Oxycontin at that time and suffered from alcoholism. He added that he has been continuously sober for nearly two years.
Patrick Kennedy is to be congratulated for getting his life together.
He is, however, to be condemned for suggesting that the legal system of the United States should be organized in a way to suit the needs of a small minority unable to cope with the temptation presented by a relatively innocuous plant.
It should also be noted that, as described in the Huffington Post, Kennedy’s own problems were with a prescription drug and with alcohol. The former is, under certain conditions, legal, and the latter is freely available for anyone over the (ludicrously advanced) age of 21.
Should alcohol be banned too?
David Frum goes on to point out that marijuana comes with health risks. He’s right. Their extent can be debated, but not their existence, even if (unlike the case, say, with alcohol) nobody has ever died of an overdose of this particular drug.
Ban pot for the under-18s by all means (and have penalties for those that inhale and drive too), but everyone else should be free to decide for themselves whether weed is a risk that they want to run. Some—Patrick Kennedy types—will make the wrong decision—and they should be helped back on to the right path when they do, but to assume that most people are incapable of deciding this relatively trivial matter for themselves is not only an insult, but a further step down the road to the infantilization of a society that once knew how to think for itself.
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Comments:
Jun '10
Re: Digging a Deeper Hole
Scott Reusser
Does "anything goes" Amsterdam work? I don't know -- I've never been there. As conservatives, though, we should be cautious, take a good look at places where "anything goes" (weed, prostitution, whatever) has been tried, and see how society functions.
I suspect the evidence is not slam dunk. But again, I'm not sure. · 9 minutes ago
I can tell you from experience that running a brothel is not an erotic adventure. The women are thieves, the johns are drunk, and the cops are on the take. Prostitution corrupts and degrades everyone.
As for the legalized drug culture in Amsterdam, ten addicts living on the dole together in a canal barge the size of your living room is hardly civilized. Such people contribute nothing to society. Despite attempts to improve public hygiene through safe needle programs and the like, you find the residue of these wrecked lives everywhere. Do you want your kids exposed to an addict passed out in the park in a puddle of his own vomit? Or be obliged to police the place for spent needles before they can play? This is not civilized; it's just managed decadence.
Re: Digging a Deeper Hole
~Paules
I can tell you from experience that running a brothel is not an erotic adventure. The women are thieves, the johns are drunk, and the cops are on the take. Prostitution corrupts and degrades everyone.
What? From experience? New post! New post! I want details! Wait, that doesn't quite sound right. Never mind!
Dec '12
Re: Digging a Deeper Hole
Amsterdam is now restricting coffee house sales to locals because the coffee houses were becoming centers for international drug users and dealers. The same lovely people also bring in foreigners to staff their brothels.
Does anyone really believe that legalization would prevent criminals from selling to kids?
Mar '11
Re: Digging a Deeper Hole
Scott Reusser
Does "anything goes" Amsterdam work? I don't know -- I've never been there.
Let's put it this way: A-dam is a fun city to party in and has some great bars and nightclubs, but I wouldn't want to live there. The Dutch folks that I've met in my career mostly regard it as almost a different country, and most of the Netherlands isn't like it.
However, it isn't quite anything goes, so far as I recall. "Hard" drugs are still illegal there (though, like any large city, they are certainly used there). Pot is legal and prostitution is legal in one district of the city. Both are taxed and regulated.
Oct '10
Re: Digging a Deeper Hole
Scott Reusser
I'mnotsayingpreserving the stigma is sufficient reason to keep it illegal, but it's something to consider. There's no question we'd end up with a more permissive culture over time with legalization.
Does "anything goes" Amsterdam work? I don't know -- I've never been there. As conservatives, though, we should be cautious, take a good look at places where "anything goes" (weed, prostitution, whatever) has been tried, and see how society functions.
The 'necessary stigma' argument needs to be seriously reevaluated by social conservatives. This is an area where I think conservatism needs to move steadily toward the Libertarian position.
The argument that coercion by the state is necessary to effect the right attitudes is rife with opportunities for abuse. This is so intuitive that it will be--has been--an area used by the Left to caricature the Right as nannystate scolds. Or Big Brother wannabees.
Let's abandon the position that it's the state's responsibility to establish ethics**. Return the job to family and church. We should be mocking the Left for advocating this very idea.
Edit: **To clarify, I'm mean ethics that go beyond the non-aggression principle
Edited on January 10, 2013 at 4:18pmJun '10
Re: Digging a Deeper Hole
Mollie Hemingway, Ed.
~Paules
I can tell you from experience that running a brothel is not an erotic adventure. The women are thieves, the johns are drunk, and the cops are on the take. Prostitution corrupts and degrades everyone.
What? From experience? New post! New post! I want details! Wait, that doesn't quite sound right. Never mind! · 17 minutes ago
Let me just say in my defense that it wasn't something I intended to do. I got stuck in a situation, you see, in a port where during the winter the hotels maintain a "staff" to keep the rooms full. I started to hang with sailors, and before long I was "arranging" things in exchange for free drinks. The story involves a motorcycle, a shipload of Filipino sailors, a German captain, the madame, two dozen prostitutes, a corrupt cop, a fleet of taxis, a Peace Corp worker, and crane operator. Arranging things is what a pimp does, so I arranged my escape. I think there's probably still a price on my head in the little port of San Antonio.
Dec '10
Re: Digging a Deeper Hole
In my large family and wide social circle, I'm one of very few people I know who has never smoked pot (or anything else, for that matter). The stigma thing isn't working very well for casual, occasional use. Given the recent homecoming bust at my daughter's well reputed high school, I'd say the illegality isn't very effective either.
My support for legalization hinges largely on three items: 1) the government shouldn't be in the business of legislating virtue; 2) marijuana is no more destructive than alcohol (fetal alcohol syndrome, anyone?), and in some ways less so (domestic violence); 3) I want to disrupt the relationship between the dealer and the buyer before the stakes get higher.
On this last point, the dealer has every incentive to get your nephew hooked on heroin (crack, meth, ... whatever is more addictive and more expensive). With marijuana as the introductory offer (and its very mild attached stigma), the dealer can establish a relationship which he plans to exploit by either lacing the pot with something stronger, or simply offering a bigger buzz for an IPO which can't be refused.
The marijuana shop owner has no such incentive.
Oct '10
Re: Digging a Deeper Hole
The state is not God's little helper toward making us better people. The gist of a separation between church and state is avoiding any particular religion's dogma being imposed on us by government. In light of that, law should only extend to the essentials that protect us from each other physically or contractually.
If a drug is so addictive and controlling that it compels it's users to theft or other crime, outlawing it is legitimate, but Pot is far from that. And the gateway-drug argument is a penumbra too far.
Jul '11
Re: Digging a Deeper Hole
~Paules, that is the best story I have ever heard!
Oct '12
Re: Digging a Deeper Hole
As marijuanna becomes legal, then it won't be a gateway to an illegal culture. How many people who go to liquor stores, go on to produce their own moonshine?
Sep '10
Re: Digging a Deeper Hole
Ricochet's value is in our different experiences and our first-hand reports. generally I find people here to be fair minded and generous, and there are plenty of things we disagree on. Since I am anonymous I can speak freely, but since I'm anonymous one could say anything and not be accountable. But I've posted enough here for people to judge.
I know hundreds of pot smokers. Hundreds. I know all types. Chronic smokers, ex-smokers, occasional smokers, people who smoked as teenagers and stopped people who started later in life. I know successful motivated people who smoke weed, I know not-so-successful people who smoke weed. There are police, lawyers judges and all manner of people from all walks of life. I mean, our last three presidents are on record as having smoked the stuff! I also know hundreds of people who are around pot have easy access but don't smoke it themselves.
The ignorance on display here about the actual reality of pot smoking is palpable. It does seem to me, that the less a person really knows about pot and pot smokers, the more he/she is against legalization or decriminalization.
Oct '10
Re: Digging a Deeper Hole
~Paules
Mollie Hemingway, Ed.
~Paules
I can tell you from experience that running a brothel is not an erotic adventure.
What? From experience? New post! New post! I want details! Wait, that doesn't quite sound right. Never mind!
Igotstuckinasituationin a portwhere during the winter the hotels maintain a "staff" to keep the rooms full. I started to hang with sailors, and before long I was "arranging" things in exchange for free drinks. The story involves a motorcycle, a shipload of Filipino sailors, a German captain, the madame, two dozen prostitutes, a corrupt cop, a fleet of taxis, a Peace Corp worker, and crane operator. Arranging things is what a pimp does, so I arranged my escape. I think there's probably still a price on my head in the little port of San Antonio.
Paules, I'm seeing a movie here. Big movie. We craft it as 'true-story cautionary' so we can make it as titillating as we want and still keep our conservative cred.
You've already done the heavy lifting with your outline, so we just bring in Rob for a little fleshing-out (if you get my drift). My people will be in touch. Ciao.
Sep '10
Re: Digging a Deeper Hole
And it's not a matter of whether the drug itself is bad or good. It's about which is better , the status quo, which doesn't adequately deter use, or decriminalization or legalization of a somewhat questionable substance.
Gambling is bad. I think it has very bad social consequences, but it is legal just about everywhere now. It's not the end of the world.
But it would be if 80% of gamblers still gambled illegally and the police were on watch to break up every crap game in town, and bust numbers rackets.
Keeping those 20% of folks safe from the lure of gambling isn't worth the money and personal devastation and the corruption illegal gambling fosters on a system we all depend upon to protect us.
And by the way, most who haven't smoked weed at this point are the very ones who will likely avoid it still when legal. Those who are attracted and likely to smoke are already doing so.
It's absurd.
May '10
Re: Digging a Deeper Hole
The question I have is this: Did this involve hiring the crane operator in his professional capacity? Are we talking about a hooker so large that took a fleet of taxis and the crane to get her to work?
On second thought, don't tell us. Our imaginations have got to better than the real story...
Nov '12
Re: Digging a Deeper Hole
One issue that never seems to come up with the MJ legalization arguments on either side is second hand smoke. From what I understand, MJ second hand smoke can make anyone smelling it in the vicinity high. If that is the case, it's not really all about one person's choice that won't affect anyone else.
It would be hard to know at a concert or party where someone was smoking it how it would affect you to drive, etc. even if you didn't smoke it.
And what about situations like that of a friend of mine who had to complain to her landlord that she could smell her neighbor's cigarette smoke in her upstair apartment because it came through the vents? If an MJ stupor is catchy in that way, what kind of control do you have at all in these sorts of settings?
Dec '12
Re: Digging a Deeper Hole
My thinking has finally come down against legalization of marijuana. This issue is not whether it is safe, the issue is that the big government welfare state and litigious employment environment make it unlikely that habitual "pot heads" will be allowed to suffer the consequences of their addictions.
If pot use is legalized, marijuana addiction will be the next federal disability class and employers will be hard pressed to fire marijuana users for poor work performance.
Get rid of the welfare state and I would be all for legalization of pot.
Dec '10
Re: Digging a Deeper Hole
Nick Stuart
Yes, as long as it Jesus and Maria, LaShawn and Towanda, Jim Bob and Summer Rae, the war on drugs and ever tougher sentences sounds great to upper middle-class elites.
When it's Ashley and Jordan getting sent to Stateville and Dwight [infamous prisons here in the Peoples Republic of Illinois] and making interesting new friends for 5-to-10 years suddenly it doesn't sound like such a good idea. · 7 hours ago
The best way to get rid of bad laws is to vigorously enforce them.
Dec '10
Re: Digging a Deeper Hole
They talked about the above. They decided against it.
On planet earth drugs being illegal does not prevent kids from buying them. How does it work on your planet?
Dec '10
Re: Digging a Deeper Hole
Illustrating what was stated in another post. The less you know about marijuana, the more likely you are to be against it.
Feb '12
Re: Digging a Deeper Hole
First, the notion that marijuana prohibition is a practical failure may be correct, but also a foolish argument to make for its legalization. Crime, in general persist, despite the best efforts of law enforcement and the citizenry. Qualify crime prohibition as a practical failure, so therefore it should be legalized?
Prohibition a destroyer of lives? A gift to criminals? Do you really believe that criminals and drug dealers will discontinue their sale of marijuana because its legal? The truth is they won't. They'll continue to sell, as a criminal enterprise, because it is tied together with harder drugs.
I assure you persons indulging in marijuana is an "insult to individual responsibility". The drug is emotionally stunting, psychologically addictive, and persons, especially children, raised in pot friendly environment, prone to neglect and abuse. The effect that people seek from marijuana is release from...what, exactly? Irresponsibility.