Derbyshire Speaks
Douglas ·
April 11, 2012 at 4:11am
I know we've had a lot of posts about L'Affaire Derbyshire ($1 to Diane Ellis), but up till now, John Derbyshire himself has not commented. He's been given a forum to do so in one of the most unlikely of places: Gawker. They were surprisingly fair minded, he was frank, and the exchange is informative. Apparently, Derbyshire is more concerned with getting his chemo treatments right now than he is with responding to the firestorm he started. Lots of interesting info in the exchange.
Editor's Note: We've had a lot of spirited exchanges over the Derbyshire incident on the Member Feed over the past four days. Here are a few of the many Member-initiated conversations on the topic:
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Comments:
Dec '10
Re: Derbyshire Speaks
Just for the record, I'm not arguing for or against what Derb wrote. His ideas on what advice to give his kids regarding race would never have come from my little head. My talk would have been very different.
What I'm arguing against is the knee jerk reaction to shun the politically incorrect that prevents intelligent people from doing any analysis of ideas.
Edited on April 11, 2012 at 7:20pmOct '10
Re: Derbyshire Speaks
Jerry Broaddus: Just for the record, I'm not arguing for or against what Derb wrote. His ideas on what advice to give his kids regarding race would never have come from my little head. My talk would have been very different.
What I'm arguing against is the knee jerk reaction to shun the politically incorrect that prevents intelligent people from doing any analysis of ideas. · 7 minutes ago
Edited 3 minutes ago
But it wasn't that intelligent. Some parts were true, yes. But others were not. Take his line that white people shouldn't vote for black politicians, since they tend to be more corrupt than white ones. In my (admittedly limited) experience, black politicians in safe seats created by the Voting Rights Act tend to be corrupt.
But such seats were usually created by gerrymandering bunches of black people into one district. If you are white and a candidate in your congressional district is black, chances are he isn't any more corrupt than any other politician. Not all black politicians are corrupt.
Oct '10
Re: Derbyshire Speaks
Basil Fawlty
Mollie Hemingway, Ed.
What civilization are you in? In mine, his contemptuous and sneering rhetoric is beyond the pale, even if he hadn't argued that black people in need of assistance on the side of the road (sorry, *apparently* in need of assistance) be ignored or that groups that are majority black be avoided and so on and so forth.
Pretending that an anecdote here or there and an out-of-context link to something makes it "scientific evidence" doesn't pass muster either. · 40 minutes ago
And when someone takes offense at something you write about gay marriage that's perceived as hateful and beyond the pale by the LBGT community, what then, Mollie? It amazes me that the the default reaction to ideas we don't like is now to silence them rather than challenge them. · 56 minutes ago
Well, she's usually quite nice about that topic. She would never, ever write anything as hateful as Derb did on gay marriage.
Dec '11
Re: Derbyshire Speaks
Joseph Eagar
But it wasn't that intelligent. Some parts were true, yes. But others were not. Take his line that white people shouldn't vote for black politicians, since they tend to be more corrupt than white ones. In my (admittedly limited) experience, black politicians in safe seats created by the Voting Rights Act tend to be corrupt.
But such seats were usually created by gerrymandering bunches of black people into one district. If you are white and a candidate in your congressional district is black, chances are he isn't any more corrupt than any other politician. Not all black politicians are corrupt. · 0 minutes ago
He did not actually say to not vote for them. He did say that one should examine their character more closely before deciding one way or the other.
Whether or not you find that to be morally better is of course your judgement to make.
Mar '11
Re: Derbyshire Speaks
Joseph Eagar
Basil Fawlty
Mollie Hemingway, Ed.
What civilization are you in? In mine, his contemptuous and sneering rhetoric is beyond the pale, even if he hadn't argued that black people in need of assistance on the side of the road (sorry, *apparently* in need of assistance) be ignored or that groups that are majority black be avoided and so on and so forth.
Pretending that an anecdote here or there and an out-of-context link to something makes it "scientific evidence" doesn't pass muster either. · 40 minutes ago
And when someone takes offense at something you write about gay marriage that's perceived as hateful and beyond the pale by the LBGT community, what then, Mollie? It amazes me that the the default reaction to ideas we don't like is now to silence them rather than challenge them. · 56 minutes ago
Well, she's usually quite nice about that topic. She would never, ever write anything as hateful as Derb did on gay marriage. · 1 minute ago
But if she did, should she be fired by Ricochet?
Oct '10
Re: Derbyshire Speaks
Basil Fawlty
But if she did, should she be fired by Ricochet? · 2 minutes ago
I suppose. Even if Mollie, say, got drunk and wrote something hateful, she would definitely apologize profusely later. My understanding is Derb still had these views when sober, and didn't especially feel like apologizing for them.
Mar '12
Re: Derbyshire Speaks
I, and others here, arent shunning the remarks because they are politically incorrect. Your characterization of the arguments made against Derb isnt accurate. I take issue with the evidence Derb pulls out to support his advice and the fact that, despite his claims, he does not have a statistical basis for it. He offers only selective anecdotes if anything at all to buttress his conclusions.
What's more, he does nothing to enlighten or open up the conversation on race relations. Instead he sets up a dubious standard for making judgements about how to interact with black people with the false assertion about the factual validity of those judgements. That only deepens distrust and pours gasoline on the fire of interracial perceptions which are already fraught with deep suspicion.
Were there actual, trustworthy data and serious thought behind Derbs writing, he wouldnt be getting criticized the way he is. This is not about being PC. Why not take up the arguments rather than labeling them inaccurately, so that you may dismiss them.
Edited on April 11, 2012 at 7:52pmMar '11
Re: Derbyshire Speaks
Mollie Hemingway, Ed.
What civilization are you in? In mine, his contemptuous and sneering rhetoric is beyond the pale, even if he hadn't argued that black people in need of assistance on the side of the road (sorry, *apparently* in need of assistance) be ignored or that groups that are majority black be avoided and so on and so forth.
Pretending that an anecdote here or there and an out-of-context link to something makes it "scientific evidence" doesn't pass muster either. · 2 hours ago
While some of the things Derb said were insulting to one degree or another, they weren't "sneering". Not his style. Part of the shock of the piece was the cold, matter of fact delivery. It read more like precautions for using power tools than a passionate Klan rally.
Apr '11
Re: Derbyshire Speaks
Because I grew-up welfare, food stamp, trailer park, visiting time at the state penitentiary poor these types of controversies seem completely forced to me. While I know crime rates are higher among blacks, I wonder, do middle class whites have no experiences with the white under-class?
I avoid certain classes of people at certain times regardless of race. Some advice:
(10a)Avoid concentrations of lower class people not all known to you personally.
(10b)Stay out of poor neighborhoods.
(10c)If planning a trip to a beach or amusement park at some date, find out whether it is likely to be swamped with bikers, meth dealers or ex-cons on that date.
(10d)Do not attend events likely to draw a lot of lower class people.
(10e)If you are at some public event at which the number of poor people suddenly swells, leave as quickly as possible.
(10h)Do not act the Good Samaritan to people dressed inappropriately and who speak in a vulgar way in apparent distress, e.g., on the highway.
(10i)If accosted by a strange person in dirty clothing, and unkept appearance in the street, smile and say something polite but keep moving.
Dec '11
Re: Derbyshire Speaks
I do.
Re: Derbyshire Speaks
Joseph Eagar
Basil Fawlty
But if she did, should she be fired by Ricochet?
I suppose. Even if Mollie, say, got drunk and wrote something hateful, she would definitely apologize profusely later. My understanding is Derb still had these views when sober, and didn't especially feel like apologizing for them. ·
I don't believe people should write hateful things and if I did write something beyond the pale (although it would not be about marriage law and much more likely would be against racists, which is my weak spot), particularly if it was part of a pattern going over a decade, I'd certainly expect my editors to fire me. I don't see that happening however. This is not to deny that I'm a deeply flawed person -- just that hateful writing isn't my thing.
But it's interesting to bring up sobriety. I've been following Derb for long enough to know that this wasn't out of character. I thought he should have been fired for racism against a colleague years ago. Having said that, I do acknowledge that his cancer treatments may have made his rhetoric even more sneering than normal.
Dec '11
Re: Derbyshire Speaks
More from Mr. Derbyshire
http://collectedmiscellany.com/2003/11/derbyshire-interview-follow-up/
May '11
Re: Derbyshire Speaks
"So I believe race is a real thing, that races differ–statistically–in
important ways, and that private racial discrimination is not immoral, and
certainly should not be illegal. In the current American climate, I think
that makes me a “very mild, tolerant racist.”
That is the summation of the link GFH posted. To me the problem Derbyshire got into was chiefly from being too enamored with statistics and we all know how they rank with lies and damned lies.
Edited on April 11, 2012 at 9:32pmMar '11
Re: Derbyshire Speaks
Mollie Hemingway, Ed.
I don't believe people should write hateful things and if I did write something beyond the pale (although it would not be about marriage law and much more likely would be against racists, which is my weak spot), particularly if it was part of a pattern going over a decade, I'd certainly expect my editors to fire me.
But it's interesting to bring up sobriety. I've been following Derb for long enough to know that this wasn't out of character. I thought he should have been fired for racism against a colleague years ago. Having said that, I do acknowledge that his cancer treatments may have made his rhetoric even more sneering than normal. · 20 minutes ag
"Hateful" is an infinitely flexible standard that requires the reader to assign an evil motive (hate) to the writer. Based on what I've read, I don't agree with you that Derbyshire's writing is "filled with hate" for black people. And I'm also a bit nervous about attributing someone's unpopular/impolitic opinions to illness. It strikes me as rather Soviet.
Re: Derbyshire Speaks
Basil Fawlty
And I'm also a bit nervous about attributing someone's unpopular/impolitic opinions to illness. It strikes me as rather Soviet. · 12 minutes ago
I didn't realize the Soviets were known for attempting to put the best construction on things! I don't care if someone's view is unpopular. Almost all of mine are unpopular. If by impolitic you mean unwise, I would agree that Derbyshire's rant fell in that category.
Mar '11
Re: Derbyshire Speaks
Mollie Hemingway, Ed.
Basil Fawlty
And I'm also a bit nervous about attributing someone's unpopular/impolitic opinions to illness. It strikes me as rather Soviet. · 12 minutes ago
I didn't realize the Soviets were known for attempting to put the best construction on things! · 1 minute ago
They weren't. But I believe they did use the technique to delegitimize views they found unpalatable.
Oct '10
Re: Derbyshire Speaks
Lady Bertrum: Because I grew-up welfare, food stamp, trailer park, visiting time at the state penitentiary poor these types of controversies seem completely forced to me. While I know crime rates are higher among blacks, I wonder, do middle class whites have no experiences with the white under-class?
I avoid certain classes of people at certain times regardless of race. Some advice:
(10a)Avoid concentrations oflower class peoplenot all known to you personally.
(10b)Stay out ofpoorneighborhoods.
I agree with Lady Bertrum. My own parents taught me the exact same lessons, and I'm very grateful for it (I have friends and relatives who were not so fortunate). My parents grew up in poor white communities, and their definition of "the bad part of town" has always been race-blind for that reason.
We always supported work requirements for welfare, not because we knew or saw any black people on welfare, but because we knew and saw a great many white people on welfare.
Dec '10
Re: Derbyshire Speaks
Horace
I, and others here, arent shunning the remarks because they are politically incorrect. Your characterization of the arguments made against Derb isnt accurate. I take issue with the evidence Derb pulls out to support his advice and the fact that, despite his claims, he does not have a statistical basis for it. He offers only selective anecdotes if anything at all to buttress his conclusions.
...
My characterization of some of Derb's critics is spot on. I don't have to make room for exceptions since just one person shouting "racist" tends to quell honest discussion.
Dec '11
Re: Derbyshire Speaks
Mollie Hemingway, Ed.
Basil Fawlty
And I'm also a bit nervous about attributing someone's unpopular/impolitic opinions to illness. It strikes me as rather Soviet. · 12 minutes ago
I didn't realize the Soviets were known for attempting to put the best construction on things! I don't care if someone's view is unpopular. Almost all of mine are unpopular. If by impolitic you mean unwise, I would agree that Derbyshire's rant fell in that category. · 59 minutes ago
unwise is a perfect desciption.
Dec '10
Re: Derbyshire Speaks
L"Affair Derbyshire is evidence of what we all know to be true. One cannot speak frankly about race in America. Free speech is not comme il faut. The real scandal here is how conservative white America eats their own, whenever anyone who is white attempts to speak his mind on racial issues. Yet the New Black Panthers stand in the doors of voting centers armed with clubs and these same Conservatives' response is a tentative, stuttering suggestion that "may...maybe they shouldn't be allowed to do that?"
Edited on April 21, 2012 at 5:09pm