Derbyshire Speaks
Douglas ·
April 11, 2012 at 4:11am
I know we've had a lot of posts about L'Affaire Derbyshire ($1 to Diane Ellis), but up till now, John Derbyshire himself has not commented. He's been given a forum to do so in one of the most unlikely of places: Gawker. They were surprisingly fair minded, he was frank, and the exchange is informative. Apparently, Derbyshire is more concerned with getting his chemo treatments right now than he is with responding to the firestorm he started. Lots of interesting info in the exchange.
Editor's Note: We've had a lot of spirited exchanges over the Derbyshire incident on the Member Feed over the past four days. Here are a few of the many Member-initiated conversations on the topic:
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Comments:
Re: Derbyshire Speaks
Mark Wilson
I took it. I guess I'm just the most virtuous one here! "Your data suggest little to no automatic preference between African American and European American."
I took it. I assumed that I would have no automatic preference or that I might have a slight preference for what they call "European Americans" but it said I have a slight preference for "African Americans." I'd be interested to learn more how they determine this.
May '10
Re: Derbyshire Speaks
Mollie Hemingway, Ed.
I took it. I assumed that I would have no automatic preference or that I might have a slight preference for what they call "European Americans" but it said I have a slight preference for "African Americans." I'd be interested to learn more how they determine this. · 1 hour ago
The result is based on the amount of time it takes you to process the mixed category questions. If it takes you longer to sort out when the Good and African American categories are together than it does when the Good and White categories are together, they assume that's an indication that your natural inclination is to associate Good with White and you have to put forth extra mental effort to associate Good with African American.
Who knows if there's any scientific basis for that.
Feb '12
Re: Derbyshire Speaks
Mark Wilson
Mollie Hemingway, Ed.
I took it. I assumed that I would have no automatic preference or that I might have a slight preference for what they call "European Americans" but it said I have a slight preference for "African Americans." I'd be interested to learn more how they determine this. · 1 hour ago
The result is based on the amount of time it takes you to process the mixed category questions. If it takes you longer to sort out when the Good and African American categories are together than it does when the Good and White categories are together, they assume that's an indication that your natural inclination is to associate Good with White and you have to put forth extra mental effort to associate Good with African American.
Who knows if there's any scientific basis for that. · 13 minutes ago
You seem to know what's going on here. Why are my results backwards?
May '10
Re: Derbyshire Speaks
Leslie Katz
You seem to know what's going on here. Why are my results backwards? · 13 minutes ago
You might consider taking it two or more times. There is always some noise (randomness) in the results, if you get slightly distracted during the test and delay your result, or if you make errors in assigning faces or words. This effect can be averaged out by taking it again.
There are also lots of assumptions behind the setup of the test that might work well on the average, but don't serve some individual test-takers very well. It could just be that you're one of the people for whom the test doesn't measure your true inclinations accurately because of your unique mental characteristics.
I was going to suggest to Molly that women are slightly more likely than men to mix up left and right, but that would be a suggestion of genetic bias. =)
I'd put about as much trust in these results as an online personality test.
May '10
Re: Derbyshire Speaks
I have been in communication with Derb for more than ten years. I don't agree with all his advice but people have the right to choose who they will associate with, don't they?
Dec '11
Re: Derbyshire Speaks
You are incorrect. He does not say they are racial traits, only that the group distribution of intelligence is centered lower than whites, and that this will have social consequences. You are saying he makes a leap to a causation he does not make.
For instance:
If I say that people generally drive 10-15 MPH over the speed limit down I95 south of fredericksburg, that this is unsafe, so one should take route one instead. I have not made any fantastic leap that southerners are geneticly predisposed to driving fast.
Edited on April 11, 2012 at 1:10pmDec '11
Re: Derbyshire Speaks
Amy Schley
I can't speak for "big league" online publishing, but when I was writing professionally for WoW Insider (yes, I'm a mild World of Warcraft junkie), I pitched my column, filled out my employment paperwork, submitted my columns, and was fired all through email and other web services. I never talked to my boss voice-to-voice; any one-on-one conversations were done through instant messaging services.
I wonder if I read anything you wrote.
Mar '11
Re: Derbyshire Speaks
Crow's Nest
Guruforhire
He did not say that average lower intelligence makes black people worth less as people. · 22 minutes ago
Your right. That sentence appears nowhere in his piece.
But given the way his piece makes unwarranted logical leaps from IQ tests to everyday activities like car breakdowns, home-ownership, the character of blacks in public life, and one's actions if one happens to be in a place where's theirs too many of "them" (hey, let's be honest, it could break out into violence at any moment. Run away!) says it without saying it.
Again: let's note here, Derb's piece, even now, speaking after this incident, reprises his self-identification: "I am a racist, albeit a mild and tolerant one".
You don't have to don a white cowl for us to think your views are reprehensible and indefensible. · 16 hours ago
Finally. The obligatory KKK card has been played. I guess we're done here.
Feb '12
Re: Derbyshire Speaks
Guruforhire
Amy Schley
I can't speak for "big league" online publishing, but when I was writing professionally for WoW Insider (yes, I'm a mild World of Warcraft junkie), I pitched my column, filled out my employment paperwork, submitted my columns, and was fired all through email and other web services. I never talked to my boss voice-to-voice; any one-on-one conversations were done through instant messaging services.
I wonder if I read anything you wrote. · 1 hour ago
I started the Lawbringer column in February of 2010 but was fired about six months later. I wasn't quite what they wanted for the column, they have a lawyer as a editor so they already had my replacement ready, and I wasn't a good fit with the work culture.
I am still an officer in the blog-related guild. Most likely to catch me on Patent or Bearister <The Insiders> Zangarmarsh, US.
Feb '11
Re: Derbyshire Speaks
Exactly, I think class and culture has more to it than anything genetic. My first "real" post college job was for a major national service company and I worked the phones with the night shift, my shift coworkers were mostly black, those black co-workers quickly became my closest friends during the year I spent there, why, we were all from a similar rural background, and most of their families had only come north a generation or two ago, and so their southern diaspora culture was closer to my lily-white rural upbringing including: religion (in belief if not style of worship), food, folk-ways, child rearing, etc., than the majority of the white employees, who were urban/suburban and with whom I had almost nothing in common.
katievs: But that doesn't mean there aren't real grounds for hope in the possibility of racial harmony.
I think Derb is despairing because he lacks faith. Shared religious and moral values trump racial differences. Eminem is as scary-alien to me as a black rap artist. But Cardinal Arinze is like a beloved grandfather.
Feb '11
Re: Derbyshire Speaks
But isn't this cultural. An interesting read on this topic is the book Acting White. The irony of forced de-segregation. I thought the book was well argued, and while I wasn't 100% convinced I think it certainly is helpful in explaining how we came to this point. The issues with the white-underclass and even lower middle class have been explained and discussed and I think culture is still at the root.
Joseph Eagar
Right, but a lot of this is class-based. If you went to a poor black neighborhood, you'd probably encounter a lot of cultural problems. What isn't talked about much is the same is true of poor white communities; the only difference is poor whites trust wealthier whites more than poor blacks trust wealthier blacks (which smoothes things over), but under the surface "white trash" communities have all kinds of nasty socioeconomic problems too. · 8 hours ago
Ethan Safron
Joseph Eagar:
My mother recently went into public education. From what she tells me, in much of black culture education is considered "acting white."
Reminds me of this book.
Which would certainly go along with your "culture" argument. · 9 hours ago
Mar '12
Re: Derbyshire Speaks
I said "de facto" racial traits. I put that qualifier in there for a reason. He stops short of calling these behaviors inherent to black peoples nature, but he advises people to act as if they were inherent traits one should expect to encounter. I have been around and worked with many black people and even done tutoring and mentoring in the Chicago projects. His advice is garbage. These behaviors he cites, which to him necessitate avoiding black people, are not the norm among black people. This behavior is still highly aberrant despite its increased prevalence. It is nowhere near common enough to support the prescriptions Derb advocates.
Edited on April 11, 2012 at 3:57pmMar '12
Re: Derbyshire Speaks
No but you've given advice without pointing out whether the increased risk is high enough to even worry about. If you know driving a certain route will put you at risk one in a million times, but a shorter, faster route will put you at risk two in a million times, yes you've doubled your risk. But it would still be stupid to suggest that the alternate, faster route is unsafe and should always be avoided.
Edited on April 11, 2012 at 3:45pmNov '11
Re: Derbyshire Speaks
After reading all of the articles and comments I think the moral of the story is that everyone needs to let the black community know that the discussion is now open on how deeply in trouble they are leading to real change. If you care you will not ignore the facts and you don't have to be Thomas Sowell to state them. This will spill over into other culture groups (hopefully and esp. reservations) including the empathetic left. Instead of posts stating that I know plenty of smart, regular black people I would be more interested to hear the conversations you've had with them on the black abortion rate, for instance. Or, ask them if they think only non-blacks can be racist. This conversation is a step above the old reparations one at least (yawn). In other words finally have real discussions instead of always defending (I personally never say the equivalent of 'I am really not a bigot, homophobe, whatever, but...' at the beginning of an opinion. Try it- it's a hard habit to break). I am encouraged that the conservative blogosphere is taking a stand, even NR.
Edited on April 11, 2012 at 3:54pmDec '11
Re: Derbyshire Speaks
Horace
No but you've given advice without pointing out whether the increased risk is high enough to even worry about. If you know driving a certain route will put you at risk one in a million times, but a shorter, faster route will put you at risk two in a million times, yes you've doubled your risk. But it would still be stupid to suggest that the alternate, faster route is unsafe and should always be avoided. · 1 minute ago
Edited 0 minutes ago
That is judgement based upon risk, and one's own tolerance of risk is their own perogative. We are a nation of handguns in nightside stands, just in case for instance.......
I of course speed like a fiend.
Dec '11
Re: Derbyshire Speaks
Horace
I said "de facto" racial traits. I put that qualifier in there for a reason. He stops short of calling these behaviors inherent to black peoples nature, but he advises people to act as if they were inherent traits one should expect to encounter. I have been around and worked with many black people and even done tutoring and mentoring in the Chicago projects. His advice is garbage. These behaviors he cites, which to him necessitate avoiding black people, are not the norm among black people. This behavior is still highly aberrant despite its increased prevalence. It is nowhere near common enough to support the prescriptions Derb advocates. · 36 minutes ago
Edited 24 minutes ago
Again you are saying that derb made a sweeping statement that he did not make. It was extremely qualified.
Dec '10
Re: Derbyshire Speaks
They certainly should. And after a few days here on Ricochet, since several people have shown the fortitude not to toss Derb completely under the bus, it might be acceptable to mention him from time to time.
Outside the walls though, the wolves salivate.
Edited on April 11, 2012 at 4:45pmMar '12
Re: Derbyshire Speaks
It certainly is Derb's prerogative to be a racist who bases his choices on facile reasoning. Of course he hasn't limited this prerogative to his personal life. He's offered this stupid and dubious "advice" to others and published it for the whole world. And it's not as if he's said something limited and innocuous like Redskins fans are obnoxious when they watch games, so I would avoid Redskins bars on Sundays. He's proposed the wholesale further marginalization of a group that has deep mistrust engrained in them because of the state sanctioned marginalization they've experienced for centuries. That's not to say that black america doesn't bear responsibility for it's actions or cultural pathologies. Yes, there are deep problems in the black community which can only be solved by black people facing them honestly. But this advice by Derb does nothing to encourage that. In fact, it simply reinforces the belief that white people won't give black people a fair shake and don't believe they are capable of succeeding.
Edited on April 11, 2012 at 5:01pmDec '11
Re: Derbyshire Speaks
You are engaging in an absurdity.
Mar '12
Re: Derbyshire Speaks
Nonsense. His advice is to treat every black person in certain situations the same way. I mean never put yourself in a situation where there are more black people than others??? That is simply unjustifiable. To defend anything he wrote as simply a matter of degree in the process of risk assessment is to ignore the deeply flawed reasoning behind that risk assessment and the fact that the flaws in the reasoning demonstrate a reprehensible viewpoint regarding the worth of other human beings. This is not some mathematical exercise. It is a matter of recognizing the degree of moral consideration your fellow man deserves. Derb doesn't believe the majority of decent black people deserve the effort required to distinguish them from the indecent ones and reduces black people to a series of frightening anecdotes and statistics. It is disgusting.