Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
In the latest Uncommon Knowledge, Dennis Prager (at around the 17 minute mark) begins telling a story to emphasize a point he was making about how Islam does not value liberty. He mentioned the Somali cab drivers at the airport in Minnesota refuse to allow passengers who carry alcohol or have dogs into their cabs.
By contrast, Mr. Prager got a call from a mailman in Colorado who is a fundamentalist Christian who said he, as a mailman, has to deliver pornography, and he is at least opposed, as a Christian, to pornography as Muslim is to alcohol or dogs. But, he delivers the pornography because he believes in freedom.
Forgive me, but am I the only one who noticed problems with this?
First of all, that man delivers pornography because he is paid to do so. It is his job. He is paid a generous salary, very generous benefits and will collect a very generous pension on my dime. So, while he may believe in freedom, he delivers it because he is paid.
Second, as far as I am able to tell (with limited research), those Minnesota Somali cab drivers, unlike the sanctimonious mailman, are not federal employees suckling on the public teat. More likely they are independent operators or they work for a cab company. If they are independent operators, who own or lease their cabs, its their business if they refuse, because of their belief system, to serve some customers.
This is a measure of values. Those cab drivers believe enough in Islam to stand on their principles, refuse money and risk the economic consequences. This mailman may claim to have an objection to pornography, but obviously not enough to stand on principle and refuse that government pay check, those generous government benefits, or that pension.
That is what freedom is. The freedom to associate or not associate with whom you choose based on your own personal values system. Those taxi drivers value Islam, the mailman values his government pension. To each his own, but it doesn't prove Islam is anti-freedom.
Addendum: If I've misunderstood, Dennis is invited to clarify things.
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Comments:
Aug '10
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Kevin Walker
Seriously.
Sorry, but linking to Derb's piece does not constitute a counter-argument. I did not compare Fred's views to all of Derb's. I compared one of Fred's points to one of Derb's.
You were, I thought, dropping hints about what gets someone ostracized.
If Derb had limited himself to one controversial remark about helping people in distress, do you think he would have brought down the wrath he did upon himself?
But no, Derb didn't confine himself to one controversial remark. He indulged himself in a long racialist rant. I see a difference, don't you? And that makes Derb's whole rant a reasonable counter-argument.
Edited on June 22, 2012 at 7:29pmAug '10
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Midget Faded Rattlesnake
Kevin Walker
Seriously.
Sorry, but linking to Derb's piece does not constitute a counter-argument. I did not compare Fred's views to all of Derb's. I compared one of Fred's points to one of Derb's.
You were, I thought, dropping hints about what gets someone ostracized.
If Derb had limited himself to one unfortunate remark about helping people in distress, do you think he would have brought down the wrath he did upon himself?
Absolutely. See the addendum to my earlier comment.
Dec '10
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
If Fred gets dumped then I'm out.
Aug '10
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Michael Horn
If Fred gets dumped then I'm out. · 0 minutes ago
Fred certainly seems to have a lot of supporters, which speaks well of him. And the fact that this was promoted to the Main Feed means that his risk of getting dumped is virtually nil.
Let me stress that I personally have no problem with Fred, and I wouldn't want him to get dumped, either. I do think that an absolutist libertarian stand is wrongheaded, and opposition to laws prohibiting racial discrimination is distasteful.
I appreciate that Fred and others believe the free market would eliminate discrimination in a case such as the airport taxi matter, however, I respectfully disagree. Certain groups gravitate to certain jobs, and I don't believe that opprobrium is always sufficient to discourage discrimination. One can easily imagine a free airport-taxi market where the majority of drivers remain devout Muslims, and where their "right" to refuse service to the blind and to pork butchers is vigorously defended by CAIR and other organizations.
Edited on June 22, 2012 at 7:02pmMar '11
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
I appreciate the vigorous defense of property rights and the free markets in this post. I even agree with most of it.
My problem is that we are/ or have become a nation of laws. We are not a pure free market, nor does anyone have absolute property rights.
Beyond the terms of his employment the mail man is legally required to deliver the mail. The Pharmacy is legally allowed not to sell certain medications. ADA and anti-discrimination laws combined with the local regulations on taxi medallions would seem to indicate that my seeing eye dog or bottle of whiskey are not a reason to deny service.
Legally the taxi cab driver regardless of his religion can not deny service for religious reasons. He must take the passengers but has every right to try and change the laws.
Sep '11
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Bryan G. Stephens
Fred Cole: (Cont'd)
For the love of Pecos Pete, laws are not magical! Any jackass who refuses to pick up Jews as a matter of business policy would be crushed by the free market in due course. And no law would stop him from doing what he does.
You people with your damn laws, you think they'll work magic. · 16 minutes ago
So Fred:
Was breaking up Jim Crow by law reasonable? Let's set aside the voting stuff, and stick just with the back of the bus stuff. Did the laws have no "magic" there? Would Jim Crow have just resolved itself on its own? · 16 hours ago
Forgive me, I have not read through all comments, but I cannot let this go, so I hope it is not redundant. Jim Crow was the law. It was not the bus companies' idea to discriminate--they liked having customers. It was the government, not private business, that imposed Jim Crow. Which illustrates Fred's point.
Aug '10
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Kevin Walker
Midget Faded Rattlesnake
If Derb had limited himself to one unfortunate remark about helping people in distress, do you think he would have brought down the wrath he did upon himself?
Absolutely. See the addendum to my earlier comment.
Alright. Personally, I can't see Derb's rant magically becoming innocuous if that one remark is removed. People would have (rightly) found some other remark to call the most offensive instead.
To me, even an unusually offensive statement gains considerably in offensive power by being surrounded by statements of similar, though perhaps lesser, offensiveness. Perhaps I'm just weird, but I doubt it.
May '11
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Yes!
Aug '10
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Also -- and this is the important point -- context is key. Derb left no doubt that his context was racialism. Fred's context is property rights. Huge difference.
Edited on June 22, 2012 at 7:10pmFeb '11
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Kevin Walker, if you want to make the point that you thought Fred Cole's comments were wrongheaded, then I will die to defend your ability to do so. But bringing Kenneth and John Derbyshire into the argument is not a line of reasoning. It is namecalling, at best. You may have intended it as funny, when you brought Derb's name into it, but when Fred asked you to explain yourself you told him that Kenneth wanted to speak to him. That's not explication. That kind of silliness passing as cogent argument is what I wanted Ricochet to hide from the world, not Fred's original line of argument which I believe is a legitimate issue for discussion and not beyond the pale as you implied.
(Edit: Papa Toad has told me that when I think I am right and the other person wrong, I will hound him until he submits and admits his error, so I recognize that I have a character defect here. So, Kevin Walker, I will stop hounding you now -- I'm done.)
Edited on June 22, 2012 at 7:12pmAug '10
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
This and #164 will be my last words on the subject. First, Fred is quite capable of defending himself. Second, bringing Derbyshire into the argument was absolutely legitimate, and I have clearly explained why. It does not mean I think Fred is a racialist. Third, if Ricochet is a silliness-free zone, this is the first I've heard about it.
Aug '10
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Mama Toad:
(Edit: Papa Toad has told me that when I think I am right and the other person wrong, I will hound him until he submits and admits his error, so I recognize that I have a character defect here. So, Kevin Walker, I will stop hounding you now -- I'm done.) · 14 minutes ago
Edited 4 minutes ago
That's interesting; Mrs. Walker has the same character defect! :-)
Aug '10
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Midget Faded Rattlesnake: Also -- and this is the important point -- context is key. Derb left no doubt that his context was racialism. Fred's context is property rights. Huge difference. · 24 minutes ago
Edited 10 minutes ago
I'm violating my "last word" pledge...
Derb's context was racialism or rational risk-assessment, depending on who you talk to. Fred's context is property rights, correct. I have not seen him write anything that would cause me to think he is a racialist.
However, as others have noted, property rights are not absolute when providing a service that is analogous to a public utility. Furthermore, the property rights argument can be used to justify discrimination whose end result is exactly the same as the racialist's. It is possible to argue in favor "states' rights" without being a racist. But that argument was also used by racists.
This is what troubles me about Fred's position.
Edited on June 22, 2012 at 7:36pmMar '11
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Two big differences between Derb and what Fred (and I) are saying:
1) Derb was talking about race - a physical property. Here we are talking about behavior: carrying alcohol, delivering a porno. The Mulim cab drivers in quesiton are Somali, and have probably refused to transport African-Americans with alcohol. And no libertarian (well, maybe Fred) is saying it should be legal for the cab driver to refuse a customer because the customer is Jewish.
2) Derb actively showed disdain toward another group. We are defending the right to show disdain toward another group. Saying the KKK has a right to assemble is fundamentally different from supporting the KKK's opinion.
Aug '10
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Kevin Walker
Derb's context was racialism or rational risk-assessment, depending on who you talk to.
It was risk-analysis based on race, hence racialism. (I chose that word carefully.) Derb also chose to rant his analysis in a style that would prompt reasonable people to... draw certain conclusions.
I'm sensitive to your concern, but if we cannot (with decency and prudence, of course) shatter the stereotype that supporting certain rights is just a mask for racism, we're in trouble. That stereotype is part of the problem, not the solution.
Likewise, I think that regulations turning taxis into public utilities are part of the problem. Why should taxis be "natural" public utilities?
(Other "natural" public utilities, such as gas and electric, may well be a separate issue, depending on what field research and thoughtful analysis yields. Lighthouses, for example, were long assumed to be natural public utilities -- until Coase demonstrated that lived history showed otherwise.)
Edited on June 22, 2012 at 8:40pmOct '10
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
How is your example any different from asserting that that wedding-photography woman who refused the job from the gay couple doesn't value THEIR freedom whatsoever, that the photographer herself hasn't assimilated, and that the gay couple doesn't have any rights that conflict with the photog's religious beliefs?
My point is, I think most Ricoteers sympathize with the photog woman. If so, why not the Somali cabbie?
(note to Rico moderator - if this point has been previously discussed at length in this thread, please feel free to delete my post; I just don't have time to read through all 175 earlier posts to find out if I'm beating a dead horse...to death!)
Edited on June 22, 2012 at 8:28pmOct '10
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
And how can a post that was supposedly posted 4 hours ago have comments from 20 hours ago? I thought it was astounding that a 4-hour-old post could have 175 comments. Now I wonder what, if anything, the time numbers mean.
Edited on June 22, 2012 at 8:30pmAug '10
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
dittoheadadt: And how can a post that was supposedly posted 4 hours ago have comments from 20 hours ago? I thought it was astounding that a 4-hour-old post could have 175 comments. Now I wonder what, if anything, the time numbers mean. · 21 minutes ago
Edited 16 minutes ago
When it was promoted to the Main Feed, the time stamp of the post was "refreshed".
Jul '10
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
What are you basing that on? All we know about the mailman is the following:
1) He is a mailman.
2) He is personally opposed to pornography.
3) Despite this, he delivers pornography, and discusses that fact in terms of liberty.
4) He is proud enough of this position that he called Dennis Prager to tell him about it.
Where are you getting that he would probably support a ban on pornography through the mail? His seems to be a "live and let live" philosophy, as far as mail delivery goes.
Fred correctly points out that there are other factors in his decision, but the irony is that, between the mailman and the cabbie, Fred is criticizing, on libertarian grounds, the one taking the more libertarian position.
May '10
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
When a member post goes to the main feed, the system sees it as a new post.