Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
In the latest Uncommon Knowledge, Dennis Prager (at around the 17 minute mark) begins telling a story to emphasize a point he was making about how Islam does not value liberty. He mentioned the Somali cab drivers at the airport in Minnesota refuse to allow passengers who carry alcohol or have dogs into their cabs.
By contrast, Mr. Prager got a call from a mailman in Colorado who is a fundamentalist Christian who said he, as a mailman, has to deliver pornography, and he is at least opposed, as a Christian, to pornography as Muslim is to alcohol or dogs. But, he delivers the pornography because he believes in freedom.
Forgive me, but am I the only one who noticed problems with this?
First of all, that man delivers pornography because he is paid to do so. It is his job. He is paid a generous salary, very generous benefits and will collect a very generous pension on my dime. So, while he may believe in freedom, he delivers it because he is paid.
Second, as far as I am able to tell (with limited research), those Minnesota Somali cab drivers, unlike the sanctimonious mailman, are not federal employees suckling on the public teat. More likely they are independent operators or they work for a cab company. If they are independent operators, who own or lease their cabs, its their business if they refuse, because of their belief system, to serve some customers.
This is a measure of values. Those cab drivers believe enough in Islam to stand on their principles, refuse money and risk the economic consequences. This mailman may claim to have an objection to pornography, but obviously not enough to stand on principle and refuse that government pay check, those generous government benefits, or that pension.
That is what freedom is. The freedom to associate or not associate with whom you choose based on your own personal values system. Those taxi drivers value Islam, the mailman values his government pension. To each his own, but it doesn't prove Islam is anti-freedom.
Addendum: If I've misunderstood, Dennis is invited to clarify things.
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Comments:
Nov '11
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
(Cont'd more)
And just so everyone is clear where I stand:
I do not think people should be forced (by men with guns) to do business with anyone they do not wish to do business with.
The freedom trade or not trade with someone is the most basic, most essential human right there is, because it encompasses all others.
If you think racism, sexism, bigotry, [name your problem] is a problem, passing a law will not magically end it.
Free trade ends that. When people trade with each other, they overlook skin color, if they do not, market forces punish them.
Why you would choose to trade with someone who openly violates your beliefs (be that opposition to racism, or someone who is openly homosexual) is beyond me. But I'll defend to the death your right to do so.
Dec '11
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Fred Cole: I have to point something out that some people seem to be missing.
I often find it useful to go back to the well and clarify basic concepts.
The definition I like best for the state is the Max Weber definition:
The state is the entity with a monopoly on the legitimate use of violence.
And for simplicity's sake, I like to use the phrase "men with guns." The state has systems, writs, courts, warrants, but at the end of the day, all those things are backed up by men with guns. At the end of it, if you haven't payed your water bill, and the state seizes your property, and you refuse to leave, and they evict you, it is men with guns, who have a monopoly on the legitimate use of force, who will evict you. · 7 minutes ago
I dispute that definition. I personally have many legitimate uses of violence.
If you said something along the lines with legitimate initiation of force/violence, I would agree.
Aug '10
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Fred Cole:
Why you would choose to trade with someone who openly violates your beliefs (be that opposition to racism, or someone who is openly homosexual) is beyond me.
Often, because...
Fred Cole:
When people trade with each other, they overlook skin color [etc], if they do not, market forces punish them.
Many folks are willing to overlook a lot when the price is right. Including offense to deeply-held beliefs. Maybe you wouldn't, but OK -- that you're not compelled to is one of the delights of freedom.
Edited on June 22, 2012 at 11:44pmAug '10
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
MFRSnake: I work in NYC. I have traveled to many cities. Drivers' reneging on an agreed-upon fare has happened to me when using unregulated, unlicensed transportation. It's simply a fact. If all airport transportation were deregulated, do you doubt that such scams would occur with greater frequency?
Aug '10
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
MFRSnake: Is roadway space at airports not finite? Does regulation not limit the number of ground transportation vehicles? If there were no regulation, would there not be a dramatic increase in the supply of ground transportation vehicles? Would this not lead to overcrowding of the airport roadways?
Aug '10
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
MFRSnake: I believe the law was recently changed, but NYC used to prohibit limos and radio cars from picking up customers at the curb. Nevertheless, if you were trying to hail a yellow cab, these black cars would frequently stop, and the driver would offer you a ride. This was unregulated (and illegal). You would then negotiate the fare with the driver. If the service was unregulated and legal, why do you think fares would be determined any other way? And wouldn't tourists, unfamiliar with the city, be at a massive disadvantage in negotiations? Who would they turn to if they were ripped off?
Aug '10
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Because of limited access, safety, the problems inherent with excessive redundancies, and other reasons, monopolies, duopolies, and other non-competitive arrangements are permitted for the delivery of electricity, natural gas, and other services, on the condition that providers submit to regulation. I don't see how airport taxis should be any different.
Aug '10
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Were these unregulated transactions also on the black market?
With a black market "contract" you have literally no legal standing. Since the contract is prohibited by law, you cannot enforce any contractual rights before the law.
Even absent regulation, contracts that are not declared by law to be illegal carry with them rights enforceable by law. This is what's meant by "rule of law" (as opposed to mere regulation). Black markets and freedom of contract are simply not comparable.
When regulatory prohibition causes nonetheless desirable transactions to hide from the rule of law, people can actually find themselves more vulnerable to scams than they would be otherwise. De Soto, among others, has researched this phenomenon.
When you engage in a transaction prohibited by law, you cannot even complain openly about shoddy treatment without incriminating yourself. One of the customer's first defenses against shoddy service -- raising a public stink about it to deter other potential customers -- is severely impaired.
Edited on June 23, 2012 at 6:04amFeb '12
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
EThompson
CuriousJohn
Mama Toad
Kevin Walker
Fred Cole
Pardon?
Fred, call your office. Kenneth would like to speak to you.
Oh please. Having sparred with Kenneth/Tom Paine/Elena/Nobody's Perfect (Kenneth and his various aliases here at Ricochet), I can say with utter calm and certainty that Fred Cole and Kenneth have nothing in common. I have never read a comment of Fred's that is not without thought behind it, even when I think he is completely wrong, and never has he engaged in gratuitous insults. Which you have done here, Kevin Walker.
Thanks Mama and Thank you Fred for standing your ground. Not that I agree will ya Fred. But love having you in Ricochet.
Say what you will, but this site isn't nearly as interesting as it once was when Kenneth and Lady K were participating. At least we weren't suffering- then- from the tyranny of nice and overtly aggressive religious views. · 13 hours ago
tyranny of nice?
E. No one is forcing you to stay. Since when is Nice and the CoC a bad place to be?
Feb '12
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Wylee Coyote
Blue Yeti: Hello all. I just wanted to jump in and let you know that we sent this conversation to Dennis last night (in an email to me he called it "absolutely fascinating") and he plans to respond to the initial post and the many thoughtful comments here at some point --probably with a post of his own-- in the next few days.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled comment thread...
I love this place. :) · 3 hours ago
Where else can this be done? So proud to be part of Ricochet
Aug '10
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Not necessarily. Suppose the number of cabs in a given city weren't capped by (inevitably protectionist) regulations. The increase in availability -- and competitiveness -- of cabs could well decrease the incentive to drive places in your own car, rather than take a cab. The result could be fewer vehicles congesting the city.
All the arguments you make sound quite plausible. The funny thing with economic arguments is how often plausible turns out to be wrong.
But where is the burden of proof? On those who say a regulated utility (let's use that as a blanket term for such non-competitive arrangements) is warranted, or on those who claim that it is not?
How we can live in anything like a free society if the default assumption is that treating markets as regulated utilities is presumed warranted unless shown otherwise beyond reasonable doubt? Rather, the burden of proof must be reversed: an exceptionally compelling case must be made for any market to be treated as a regulated utility.
Edited on June 23, 2012 at 5:41amAug '10
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Ah. See comment 208, then.
Jul '11
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Nice is when you look at the anti-Semetic cabbie and pray for his lost soul. I'm far closer to a boondocks saint. Fred Cole, correct you are that men with guns lie behind laws and their enforcement. Some of us are less intimidated than others though.
Feb '12
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Fred Cole: (Cont'd more)
And just so everyone is clear where I stand:
I do not think people should beforced (by men with guns) to do business with anyone they do not wish to do business with.
The freedom trade or not trade with someone is the most basic, most essential human right there is, because it encompasses all others.
If you think racism, sexism, bigotry, [name your problem] is a problem, passing a law will not magically end it.
Free trade ends that. When people trade with each other, they overlook skin color, if they do not, market forces punish them.
Why you would choose to trade with someone who openly violates your beliefs (be that opposition to racism, or someone who is openly homosexual) is beyond me. But I'll defend to the death your right to do so. · 2 hours ago
Everything Ends with "Men with Guns" in Fred's World. I choose not to live there Fred, because I choose to.
Dec '11
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
CuriousJohn
EThompson
Say what you will, but this site isn't nearly as interesting as it once was when Kenneth and Lady K were participating. At least we weren't suffering- then-from the tyranny of nice and overtly aggressive religious views.
E. No one is forcing you to stay.
No, indeed. Let me just say one more thing on this subject and then shall we bring it to a close? I share personal religious views as well, but perhaps due to my upbringing, I find it a tad off-putting to sermonize excessively outside of church. Call it a 'sterotypical WASP' thing...
And again, sorry to distract from an excellent post by the accomplished Dennis Prager.
Mar '11
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
O ye Kevin of little faith (in the free market),
there are situations everywhere in our lives where unregulated sellers can scam us, and yet the market always seems to find a way to provide security (yes, sometimes for a price).
If you took away all cab regulations and permits, I imagine you would soon see national chains pop up which offered you well-known, consistent service and had a reputation to uphold. It certainly works for McDonald's.
You might also see a certifying group (think Underwriter Laboratories) pop up which put their stamp of approval on cabs which met a certain standard.
And in either case, a cabbie who refused to pick up normal paying customers on religious grounds would be kicked out at once. No government regulation necessary.
Apr '11
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Fred Cole: The definition I like best for the state is the Max Weber definition:
The state is the entity with a monopoly on the legitimate use of violence.
And for simplicity's sake, I like to use the phrase "men with guns." The state has systems, writs, courts, warrants, but at the end of the day, all those things are backed up by men with guns. At the end of it, if you haven't payed your water bill, and the state seizes your property, and you refuse to leave, and they evict you, it is men with guns, who have a monopoly on the legitimate use of force, who will evict you. · 7 minutes ago
I dispute that definition. I personally have many legitimate uses of violence.
If you said something along the lines with legitimate initiation of force/violence, I would agree. · 5 hours ago
You've made his point for him. Your right to use legitimate force proceeds from the confidence you have that Men With Guns will/have sanctioned it and will, in the end, not cart you off in handcuffs.
Jul '10
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Fred, in my humble opinion you are projecting some of your own prejudices onto the actors in this case. Have you considered some alternate explanations for their behavior?
Do you begin to see that deciding which individual is acting on the side of liberty might be a bit more complicated than you allow? It's not about "men with guns" enforcing their will. It's about the very different kinds of society the cabbie and the mailman would prefer the rest of us to live in. I vote for the mailman.
Jul '10
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
And for the record, this is too dismissive, verging on insulting. Yes, yes, we all buy stamps and pay taxes, and the mailman works for us. I get it. But he is paid those things -- salary, benefits, and pension -- because he works, long and hard, and he earns them. He asserts that he delivers mail he disapproves of because he believes in freedom. His status as a government employee does not give us the right to wave away his own explanation for his actions and substitute some other, far more selfish motive on no basis whatsoever.
Apr '11
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Peter Christofferson
And for the record, this is too dismissive, verging on insulting. Yes, yes, we all buy stamps and pay taxes, and the mailman works for us. I get it. But he is paid those things -- salary, benefits, and pension -- because he works, long and hard, and he earns them. He asserts that he delivers mail he disapproves of because he believes in freedom. His status as a government employee does not give us the right to wave away his own explanation for his actions and substitute some other, far more selfish motive on no basis whatsoever. · 22 minutes ago
The failure to deliver the U.S. Mail is a federal crime. In any consideration of the mailman's relative virtue, this must be taken into acoount.