Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
In the latest Uncommon Knowledge, Dennis Prager (at around the 17 minute mark) begins telling a story to emphasize a point he was making about how Islam does not value liberty. He mentioned the Somali cab drivers at the airport in Minnesota refuse to allow passengers who carry alcohol or have dogs into their cabs.
By contrast, Mr. Prager got a call from a mailman in Colorado who is a fundamentalist Christian who said he, as a mailman, has to deliver pornography, and he is at least opposed, as a Christian, to pornography as Muslim is to alcohol or dogs. But, he delivers the pornography because he believes in freedom.
Forgive me, but am I the only one who noticed problems with this?
First of all, that man delivers pornography because he is paid to do so. It is his job. He is paid a generous salary, very generous benefits and will collect a very generous pension on my dime. So, while he may believe in freedom, he delivers it because he is paid.
Second, as far as I am able to tell (with limited research), those Minnesota Somali cab drivers, unlike the sanctimonious mailman, are not federal employees suckling on the public teat. More likely they are independent operators or they work for a cab company. If they are independent operators, who own or lease their cabs, its their business if they refuse, because of their belief system, to serve some customers.
This is a measure of values. Those cab drivers believe enough in Islam to stand on their principles, refuse money and risk the economic consequences. This mailman may claim to have an objection to pornography, but obviously not enough to stand on principle and refuse that government pay check, those generous government benefits, or that pension.
That is what freedom is. The freedom to associate or not associate with whom you choose based on your own personal values system. Those taxi drivers value Islam, the mailman values his government pension. To each his own, but it doesn't prove Islam is anti-freedom.
Addendum: If I've misunderstood, Dennis is invited to clarify things.
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Comments:
Jun '10
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
dittoheadadt
How is your example any different from asserting that that wedding-photography woman who refused the job from the gay couple doesn't value THEIR freedom whatsoever, that the photographer herself hasn't assimilated, and that the gay couple doesn't have any rights that conflict with the photog's religious beliefs?
That's a good point, but the photographer (business owner) has a much greater emotional investment in producing heirloom-quality wedding photos for you, than a hired cab driver does in taking you safely to your hotel. It's also about ownership. If I own a newsstand, I can choose to stock only newspapers and magazines with a liberal viewpoint. But if I just work there, I don't get to hide National Review and Weekly Standard in the backroom. Not without losing my job. And besides, how do I know why you're buying National Review? Maybe you're reading it to criticize it.
Dec '10
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Wylee Coyote
What are you basing that on? All we know about the mailman is the following:
1) He is a mailman.
2) He is personally opposed to pornography.
3) Despite this, he delivers pornography, and discusses that fact in terms of liberty.
4) He is proud enough of this position that he called Dennis Prager to tell him about it.
Where are you getting that he would probably support a ban on pornography through the mail? His seems to be a "live and let live" philosophy, as far as mail delivery goes.
Fred correctly points out that there are other factors in his decision, but the irony is that, between the mailman and the cabbie, Fred is criticizing, on libertarian grounds, the one taking the more libertarian position. · 36 minutes ago
Yes! Thank you!
Mar '11
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
dittoheadadt How is your example any different from asserting that that wedding-photography woman who refused the job from the gay couple doesn't value THEIR freedom whatsoever,
My point is, I think most Ricoteers sympathize with the photog woman. If so, why not the Somali cabbie?
While similar, there are inherent differences between a cab driver and a photographer.
The actual facts in the photographer case matter. The photographer did not perform the desired service but made referrals to people who would. The couple were actually married with photographs before they filed their lawsuit.
If the cab driver said I cannot drive you but I will get you another cab I would have no problem with it.
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Hello all. I just wanted to jump in and let you know that we sent this conversation to Dennis last night (in an email to me he called it "absolutely fascinating") and he plans to respond to the initial post and the many thoughtful comments here at some point --probably with a post of his own-- in the next few days.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled comment thread...
Jul '10
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Blue Yeti: Hello all. I just wanted to jump in and let you know that we sent this conversation to Dennis last night (in an email to me he called it "absolutely fascinating") and he plans to respond to the initial post and the many thoughtful comments here at some point --probably with a post of his own-- in the next few days.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled comment thread...
I love this place. :)
Aug '10
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Moshe is a Hasidic Jew. He arrives at Gotham City's Estes Kefauver Jetport. He has never been to Gotham before. He is carrying a heavy suitcase, a bottle of Manischewitz wine and, even more incongruously, a package of pork sausages.
Moshe makes his way to the ground transportation area. Because of deregulation, the lanes are choked with taxis, limos, buses, vans, motorbike rickshaws, and other vehicles ranging from the sparkling-new to the ancient and rusty. The traffic moves at a snail's pace.
Moshe is going to his cousin's apartment, rather than to a hotel, and he is in a hurry, so he has to take a vehicle in which he will be the only passenger. He makes his way along the curb, which is crowded with business travelers and tourists negotiating fares with drivers. The tourists will be surprised when they reach their hotels and find that their fare is increased 50% above the agreed amount, because of a "luggage fee".
Moshe approaches a Somali Muslim rickshaw driver. Seeing the wine and the pork, the driver says, "No way, Jose. Find another ride."
(To be continued...)
Jun '10
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
What's going to happen when a Somali Muslim refuses to take a disabled person with a service dog? Whose demands take precedence on the politically correct pecking order? This is the conundrum for leftist pundits who demand different standards for different groups. The attempt to justify their philosophy will reveal the absurdity of their position(s). Trying to accommodate different grievance groups is like a game of rock/paper/scissors where the rules keep changing. The only answer is a single standard guaranteed by the rule of law.
Aug '10
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
(...Back to our story.)
Moshe is angry, but what can he do? Wine-and-pork-carrying Hasidic travelers are not sufficient in number at the Kefauver Jetport to bring down upon the Somali drivers the opprobrium necessary for the free market to work its anti-discriminatory magic. He moves along to the next Somali driver, who shakes his head. No dice.
He comes finally to a Russian driving a beat-up Honda. "Having trouble getting ride?" he says. Moshe glumly nods. "I take you for hundred dollars," the driver says. Moshe loads his suitcase, his bottle, and his package of pork into the trunk. It takes an hour to exit the Jetport and another half hour to reach his destination. The driver charges him an extra $100 because of the "extra time." Moshe pays the fare, because he has no choice--his belongings are locked in the trunk.
Moshe has arrived in a libertarian paradise.
Edited on June 22, 2012 at 10:41pmOct '10
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Jager
dittoheadadt How is your example any different from asserting that that wedding-photography woman who refused the job from the gay couple doesn't value THEIR freedom whatsoever,
My point is, I think most Ricoteers sympathize with the photog woman. If so, why not the Somali cabbie?
While similar, there are inherent differences between a cab driver and a photographer.
The actual facts in the photographer case matter. The photographer did not perform the desired service but made referrals to people who would. The couple were actually married with photographs before they filed their lawsuit.
If the cab driver said I cannot drive you but I will get you another cab I would have no problem with it. · 51 minutes ago
Ahhh, I don't think someone at an airport needs a cabbie to hail him another cab. I think they kinda congregate there.
Dec '11
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Western Chauvinist
EThompson
Say what you will, but this site isn't nearly as interesting as it once was when Kenneth and Lady K were participating. At least we weren't suffering- then- from the tyranny of nice and overtly aggressive religious views.
I've never understood why you don't just filter what you read. I admit (without naming names), there are certain members whose tastes in conversational topics differ from mine and I just skip them when they post.
I shall try harder to do so in the future. In my defense, I've grown weary of reading the shots taken at Kenneth who contributed much to this site and particularly by some who had joined long after he was banned.
My intention was never to ruffle feathers, but to share an observation.
Aug '10
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Jager
If the cab driver said I cannot drive you but I will get you another cab I would have no problem with it.
Is it reasonable to expect cabbies to do that, or to assume ill-will when they don't?
Why a cab driving by without customers doesn't pull over for you, or why a cab waiting empty at a a place like an airport won't accept you, can often be, in my experience, mysteries unknown to the consumer. Perhaps the cab is already reserved? In the case of a stationary cab's refusal, explanation (like "I'm reserved for someone else") and a referral are nice, of course.
But learning that people don't owe you an explanation whenever they say no to you is also an important life-lesson.
Aug '10
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
EThompson
In my defense, I've grown weary of reading the shots taken at Kenneth who contributed much to this site and particularly by some who had joined long after he was banned.
Banned which time? :-)
Oct '10
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Mel Foil
dittoheadadt
How is your example any different from asserting that that wedding-photography woman who refused the job from the gay couple doesn't value THEIR freedom whatsoever, that the photographer herself hasn't assimilated, and that the gay couple doesn't have any rights that conflict with the photog's religious beliefs?
That's a good point, but the photographer (business owner) has a much greater emotional investment in producing heirloom-quality wedding photos for you, than a hired cab driver does in taking you safely to your hotel. It's also about ownership.
Who's got the greater emotional investment is specious speculation.
As for ownership, I didn't see in the writeup that the cabbies weren't independent contractors or part of a Somali-owned cab business.
So the cabbies may have had, in their own way, an equal emotional investment in their decisions, and equal ownership in their business(es), as the photog.
Oct '10
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Mel Foil
dittoheadadt
How is your example any different from asserting that that wedding-photography woman who refused the job from the gay couple doesn't value THEIR freedom whatsoever, that the photographer herself hasn't assimilated, and that the gay couple doesn't have any rights that conflict with the photog's religious beliefs?
That's a good point, but the photographer (business owner) has a much greater emotional investment in producing heirloom-quality wedding photos for you, than a hired cab driver does in taking you safely to your hotel.
I would also suggest that a cabbie responsible for getting someone safely to his destination may have a much greater emotional investment in his job than a wedding photographer taking heirloom-quality pictures.
If the cabbie fails, someone dies. If the photog fails, someone cries.
Dec '11
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
I agree Fred.
Aug '10
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Reneging on an agreed-upon fee is hardly libertarian. Where did honoring contracts go here? Where's disclosure?
You can call fraud libertarian if you like. That don't make it true.
Edited on June 22, 2012 at 11:06pmAug '10
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
You need deregulation to get choked traffic moving at a snail's pace at an airport?
Why do you assume on-the-fly negotiation is efficient enough to happen regularly? There's a perfectly natural reason it often does not, even without laws forbidding it.
Edited on June 22, 2012 at 11:22pmNov '11
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
I have to point something out that some people seem to be missing.
I often find it useful to go back to the well and clarify basic concepts.
The definition I like best for the state is the Max Weber definition:
The state is the entity with a monopoly on the legitimate use of violence.
And for simplicity's sake, I like to use the phrase "men with guns." The state has systems, writs, courts, warrants, but at the end of the day, all those things are backed up by men with guns. At the end of it, if you haven't payed your water bill, and the state seizes your property, and you refuse to leave, and they evict you, it is men with guns, who have a monopoly on the legitimate use of force, who will evict you.
Nov '11
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
(Cont'd)
So, just to clarify:
If you say a cabbie, a wedding photographer, a store owner, you name it, shouldn't be able to do X, that there should be a law against X, and that X is a peaceful, if rude, moronic or imprudent, activity.
Then you are saying that it is okay for men with guns to force someone to take someone they don't want into their taxi
I just want to clarify that for you. If you think that's a morally acceptable use of force, of men with guns, fine, that's your opinion. But just know that's where you stand.
Edited on June 22, 2012 at 11:18pmAug '10
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
I think Christian letter carriers should deliver porn, Muslim airport cab drivers should take liquor-toting passengers, Muslim Target cashiers should handle pork, and self-employed Christian photographers should work gay weddings.
The letter carrier should be compelled to do it by his employer, who should fire him if he refuses.
The airport cab driver should be compelled to do it by law/regulation, and he should have his license revoked if he refuses.
The cashier should be compelled to do it by her employer, who should fire her if she refuses.
The self-employed photographer should not be compelled to do anything.