Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
In the latest Uncommon Knowledge, Dennis Prager (at around the 17 minute mark) begins telling a story to emphasize a point he was making about how Islam does not value liberty. He mentioned the Somali cab drivers at the airport in Minnesota refuse to allow passengers who carry alcohol or have dogs into their cabs.
By contrast, Mr. Prager got a call from a mailman in Colorado who is a fundamentalist Christian who said he, as a mailman, has to deliver pornography, and he is at least opposed, as a Christian, to pornography as Muslim is to alcohol or dogs. But, he delivers the pornography because he believes in freedom.
Forgive me, but am I the only one who noticed problems with this?
First of all, that man delivers pornography because he is paid to do so. It is his job. He is paid a generous salary, very generous benefits and will collect a very generous pension on my dime. So, while he may believe in freedom, he delivers it because he is paid.
Second, as far as I am able to tell (with limited research), those Minnesota Somali cab drivers, unlike the sanctimonious mailman, are not federal employees suckling on the public teat. More likely they are independent operators or they work for a cab company. If they are independent operators, who own or lease their cabs, its their business if they refuse, because of their belief system, to serve some customers.
This is a measure of values. Those cab drivers believe enough in Islam to stand on their principles, refuse money and risk the economic consequences. This mailman may claim to have an objection to pornography, but obviously not enough to stand on principle and refuse that government pay check, those generous government benefits, or that pension.
That is what freedom is. The freedom to associate or not associate with whom you choose based on your own personal values system. Those taxi drivers value Islam, the mailman values his government pension. To each his own, but it doesn't prove Islam is anti-freedom.
Addendum: If I've misunderstood, Dennis is invited to clarify things.
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Comments:
May '10
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Fred, a DL and a MD are two vastly different things. You do not really think getting a DL and becoming a practicing MD are the same thing, or you are less intelligent that you sound.
There are many, many people without the intelligence and or education to decide how to select a MD. Again, I am smart and educated, and I have no idea if the guy fixing my car is ripping me off or not. I need to know there is some basic level of expertise in my doctor.
In my own profession, anyone could pass themselves off as a therapist. How, exactly, is a non-therapist supposed to figure out who is good with "research".
Next up, let's not certify engineers who sign off on things like bridges. Heck, any old person can do it. If it fails we know not to use that person again.
Society wants some things certified. This is not for abuse by "The State" but to protect the citizens. We ask for it.
Frankly, it sounds to me like you don't want different laws, or a different government, you want different citizens.
May '10
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Mendal:
As long as libertarianism = legal drugs and open boarders it is not going anywhere. I have strong leanings in that direction, but I also believe in community standards.
Jul '11
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
You choose a heart surgeon ideally based on where they operate, the volume of cases they see, published outcomes regarding morbidity and mortality. Money and insurance plans are an issue.
Are you asserting I could deny seeing a patient based on such an issue as race or religion? Will Somali doctors be able to deny an alcoholic or a Jew care?
If a cabbie refused me based on race/religion I'd block anyone from using his cab and if he came out I'd let him bump me slightly and drop him with a gut punch and lie to the cops that he threatened me.
I have buddies that grew up under Jim Crow and the free markets sure didn't fix that disgusting crap. Free markets were selling people here 150 years ago and still do in parts of the world.
Nov '11
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Bryan G. Stephens:
Frankly, it sounds to me like you don't want different laws, or a different government, you want different citizens. · 1 minute ago
I want people to practice personal responsibility and to do their own research instead of running to mommy government and demanding they impede people's freedom.
Frankly, I just want to be left the hell alone. All your "help" is unwelcome. L'efer c'est les autres.
Edited on June 22, 2012 at 3:27amMay '10
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Fred Cole
Bryan G. Stephens
That way of thinking lead to a great defeat and the coming of the Great Society.
No thank you. Politics is the art of what is possible, not glorious defeat. · 6 minutes ago
To each his own. Again, maybe I'm old fashioned, but I remember when conservatives stood on principle. However, I'm not a conservative. · 3 minutes ago
You may not be conservative. I assume you were not for the Great Society. Then again, maybe you were. In which case, I would classify you as a liberal.
If you were not, then I would classify you as someone who is OK with the damage done to the nation by the liberals as long as you have not compromised.
May '11
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Bryan G. Stephens
That way of thinking lead to a great defeat and the coming of the Great Society.
No thank you. Politics is the art of what is possible, not glorious defeat. · 22 minutes ago
On the other hand, the Republicans bailing out their principle off both sides of the ship during the Bush years led to a great defeat and the coming of Obamaland. While I'm sympathetic to the practical political argument, you have to stand for something.
May '10
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Fred Cole
Bryan G. Stephens:
Frankly, it sounds to me like you don't want different laws, or a different government, you want different citizens. · 1 minute ago
I want people to practice personal responsibility and to do their own research instead of running to mommy government and demanding they impede people's freedom.
Frankly, I just want to be left the hell alone. All your "help" is unwelcome. · 1 minute ago
And for all those citizens less capable than you, they are just out of luck because they are not practicing personal responsibility. My clients with mental illness should just figure it out? People with a 6th grade education will have no trouble avoiding quacks?
This looks like as long as you are left alone, you don't care what happens to your fellow citizen. If they cannot figure it out, it is their fault.
I, too, want to be left alone, but I want structures in place to give people an equal opportunity. I do not think that we should let anyone build a bridge. I don't want to live in a nation where I cannot get a cab if I am black.
May '10
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Dan
Bryan G. Stephens
That way of thinking lead to a great defeat and the coming of the Great Society.
No thank you. Politics is the art of what is possible, not glorious defeat. · 22 minutes ago
On the other hand, the Republicans bailing out their principle off both sides of the ship during the Bush years led to a great defeat and the coming of Obamaland. While I'm sympathetic to the practical political argument, you have to stand for something. · 1 minute ago
See the Tea Party.
I don't say I get what I want, but nothing under Bush was as bad as Obama.
Mar '11
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Kevin Walker:
Putting your foot down, and prohibiting cabbies from refusing passengers who are carrying a certain food product or who practice a certain religion--that's not being intolerant. That's being self-confident, and right. When a backward culture cows a more advanced, enlightened culture--shame on the latter.
Kevin, I agree with your sentiments about fundemental Islamists, and I have no problem with countering them through society - but not through the legal code.
I said above that I think Muslim businesses should be able to refuse customers with alcohol on religious freedom grounds (if the business is not a government-mandated monopoly). This is on par with allowing Christian photographers to refuse to photograph a gay wedding ceremony.
It seems that you and others would ban the Muslim from refusing service, but not the Christian, because the of the intolerance inherent in so many strains of Islam. But that would require the government to pick between "good" religion and "bad" religion, which is no different than the Obama administration deciding which church institutions are protected from the contraception mandate and which aren't.
Mar '11
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Western Chauvinist
The airport is a severely limited market.
WC,
A few pages back, I asked in a (immediately buried) comment if you think a Muslim convenience store owner should be allowed to refuse service to a customer who is drunk or has alcohol in their possession.
And how about a Christian convenience store owner refusing service to two male customers who are kissing in his store?
I agree that the airport is a publicly-owned common space, and thus subjected to unique restrictions, but how would you feel about a similar refusal of service in a completely private place of business?
May '10
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Cabs are in effect, a public service for the city. Privatized service. They need to take everyone.
Mar '11
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
So what would you say about a Muslim storeowner refusing to let customers with alcohol in?
May '10
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Mendel
Western Chauvinist
The airport is a severely limited market.
WC,
A few pages back, I asked in a (immediately buried) comment if you think a Muslim convenience store owner should be allowed to refuse service to a customer who is drunk or has alcohol in their possession.
And how about a Christian convenience store owner refusing service to two male customers who are kissing in his store?
I agree that the airport is a publicly-owned common space, and thus subjected to unique restrictions, but how would you feel about a similar refusal of service in a completely private place of business? · 2 minutes ago
Banning PDA's is fine. Not selling them soda is not.
It is fine to not serve someone who is drunk. We already do that.
Mar '11
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Also, aren't pharmacies also a privatized public service? Especially in rural areas, they are much more vital to survival than taxis in the city, yet most on the right defended the right of pharmacies to refuse to sell Plan B (with which I agree).
Mar '11
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Bryan G. Stephens
Mendel
Western Chauvinist
The airport is a severely limited market.
WC,
A few pages back, I asked in a (immediately buried) comment if you think a Muslim convenience store owner should be allowed to refuse service to a customer who is drunk or has alcohol in their possession.
And how about a Christian convenience store owner refusing service to two male customers who are kissing in his store?
I agree that the airport is a publicly-owned common space, and thus subjected to unique restrictions, but how would you feel about a similar refusal of service in a completely private place of business? · 2 minutes ago
Banning PDA's is fine. Not selling them soda is not.
It is fine to not serve someone who is drunk. We already do that. · 2 minutes ago
And if a Halal grocery store refuses to let someone in because they have an unopened bottle of wine they just bought at the liquor store across the street?
Edited on June 22, 2012 at 3:54amMay '10
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Mendel
So what would you say about a Muslim storeowner refusing to let customers with alcohol in? · 0 minutes ago
I would have to see. This happens now. I cannot take booze into lots of places.
May '10
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Mendel
Bryan G. Stephens
Mendel
Western Chauvinist
The airport is a severely limited market.
WC,
A few pages back, I asked in a (immediately buried) comment if you think a Muslim convenience store owner should be allowed to refuse service to a customer who is drunk or has alcohol in their possession.
And how about a Christian convenience store owner refusing service to two male customers who are kissing in his store?
I agree that the airport is a publicly-owned common space, and thus subjected to unique restrictions, but how would you feel about a similar refusal of service in a completely private place of business? · 2 minutes ago
Banning PDA's is fine. Not selling them soda is not.
It is fine to not serve someone who is drunk. We already do that. · 2 minutes ago
And if a Halal grocery store refuses to let someone in because they have an unopened bottle of wine they just bought across the street? · 2 minutes ago
I think that is silly to stop them. They are not drinking in public.
Of course, what has actually happened was the cab thing, not these hypotheticals.
Mar '11
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Bryan G. Stephens
I would have to see. This happens now. I cannot take booze into lots of places.
Sorry for all my repeated questions, but it seemed that we were talking in circles regarding taxis and drunkenness and what not.
My main point is this: a business owner who is not operating in a government-ordained monopoly should be allowed to refuse customers his service for behavior which is legal, even innocuous, but offends the owners' moral/religious sensibilities. I am still unsure what others here think about this specific point, because we keep getting hung up on peripheral issues.
Nov '11
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Mendel
Bryan G. Stephens
I would have to see. This happens now. I cannot take booze into lots of places.
Sorry for all my repeated questions, but it seemed that we were talking in circles regarding taxis and drunkenness and what not.
My main point is this: a business owner who is not operating in a government-ordained monopoly should be allowed to refuse customers his service for behavior which is legal, even innocuous, but offends the owners' moral/religious sensibilities. I am still unsure what others here think about this specific point, because we keep getting hung up on peripheral issues. · 0 minutes ago
I second that.
Also, this is nice. I feel like we haven't had a member post go to 100 comments in a little while. And this one did it in like 5 hours.
Jul '11
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
That's it, tomorrow I'm blacklisting all the Irish! Thanks for inspiring me to show those Micks.