Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
In the latest Uncommon Knowledge, Dennis Prager (at around the 17 minute mark) begins telling a story to emphasize a point he was making about how Islam does not value liberty. He mentioned the Somali cab drivers at the airport in Minnesota refuse to allow passengers who carry alcohol or have dogs into their cabs.
By contrast, Mr. Prager got a call from a mailman in Colorado who is a fundamentalist Christian who said he, as a mailman, has to deliver pornography, and he is at least opposed, as a Christian, to pornography as Muslim is to alcohol or dogs. But, he delivers the pornography because he believes in freedom.
Forgive me, but am I the only one who noticed problems with this?
First of all, that man delivers pornography because he is paid to do so. It is his job. He is paid a generous salary, very generous benefits and will collect a very generous pension on my dime. So, while he may believe in freedom, he delivers it because he is paid.
Second, as far as I am able to tell (with limited research), those Minnesota Somali cab drivers, unlike the sanctimonious mailman, are not federal employees suckling on the public teat. More likely they are independent operators or they work for a cab company. If they are independent operators, who own or lease their cabs, its their business if they refuse, because of their belief system, to serve some customers.
This is a measure of values. Those cab drivers believe enough in Islam to stand on their principles, refuse money and risk the economic consequences. This mailman may claim to have an objection to pornography, but obviously not enough to stand on principle and refuse that government pay check, those generous government benefits, or that pension.
That is what freedom is. The freedom to associate or not associate with whom you choose based on your own personal values system. Those taxi drivers value Islam, the mailman values his government pension. To each his own, but it doesn't prove Islam is anti-freedom.
Addendum: If I've misunderstood, Dennis is invited to clarify things.
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Comments:
May '10
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
BTW I have heard the libertarian argument made that Doctors should not be licensed. This is because we are supposed to be such experts at figuring out if a doctor is good or not, we don't need any help finding a good doctor. We will all figure it out.
I cannot figure out when the guy working on my car is on the up and up or not, and some libertarians want me to have that same experience for heart surgery?
Aug '10
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Kevin Walker
Your statement that you are okey-dokey with a cab driver's refusal to pick up a passenger based on race reminded me of John Derbyshire, who had to part ways with NR because he thought it was okey-dokey to refuse to assist a motorist in distress based on race. · 0 minutes ago
And Kenneth is a former Ricochet member.
Jul '10
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Fred Cole: (Cont'd)
For the love of Pecos Pete, laws are not magical! Any jackass who refuses to pick up Jews as a matter of business policy would be crushed by the free market in due course. And no law would stop him from doing what he does.
You people with your damn laws, you think they'll work magic. · 13 minutes ago
This is a problem. Laws aren't wishes come to life though they are often presumed to be.
Otoh, social opprobrium doesn't magically appear ex nihilo either. Consequently, folks who routinely downplay the significance of bad practices aren't so convincing when they suggest that social censure is the cure.
Nov '11
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
So let's get this straight:Govt creates a problem (Jim Crow) then you're asking if govt action to end the other govt action is okay?And you ask this in a tone as if you've somehow scored on me.
May '10
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Jim Crow was supported by the citizens of the south. It took government intervention to overturn it.
Do you honestly think that without the ban on discrimination that the south would have suddenly started to treat blacks as equals?
If the whites in the south could have chosen not to serve blacks, the racial divide would have continued.
Again, it is clear that being pure or right is more important to you than actually making any sort of change. There is no way your arguments will ever be advanced when you say that it should be legal to refuse services based on race.
Nov '11
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Jim Crow was enforced by law. Of course I'd support it's repeal. In the absence of a legal regime enforcing segregation, it would disappear over time. Free trade has a remarkable impact on race relations.
Nov '11
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Maybe I'm old fashioned but I remember way back when standing on principle was a good thing. "Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. And moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue."
Mar '11
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
And BTW, I have heard an argument by a prominent conservative that Hitler should have been appeased.
The problem with these conservative v libertarian fights is that, as usual, the most extreme positions garner the most attention.
While I am in general agreement with Fred's worldview, there are a number of solid libertarians (including myself and several others on Ricochet) who nonetheless see a much larger role for the state than the Randian view which is most visible from the outside.
For instance, many libertarians (such as myself) are onboard with public accommodation laws, but feel that they should be interpreted narrowly. As I said above - make it illegal to refuse service based on identity, but not based on behavior.
The reason libertarians never get above 1% is because they let their message be dominated by the heroin legalizers (no disrespect Fred). The same would happen to the Republicans if they made Pat Buchanan RNC chair.
May '10
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
That way of thinking lead to a great defeat and the coming of the Great Society.
No thank you. Politics is the art of what is possible, not glorious defeat.
Apr '12
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Fred Cole
I have a low opinion of federal mail carriers.
Do I know what that mailman thinks? No. I'm not a mind reader. All I can do is judge his actions. His actions show he values his benefits and his fat pension more than he objects to pornography. · 2 hours ago
Really? Is there anyone you know that can stick by the entire range of their principles in this world? Do you believe you do?
May '10
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Mendel
And BTW, I have heard an argument by a prominent conservative that Hitler should have been appeased.
The problem with these conservative v libertarian fights is that, as usual, the most extreme positions garner the most attention.
While I am in general agreement with Fred's worldview, there are a number of solid libertarians (including myself and several others on Ricochet) who nonetheless see a much larger role for the state than the Randian view which is most visible from the outside.
For instance, many libertarians (such as myself) are onboard with public accommodation laws, but feel that they should be interpreted narrowly. As I said above - make it illegal to refuse service based onidentity, but not based onbehavior.
The reason libertarians never get above 1% is because they let their message be dominated by the heroin legalizers (no disrespect Fred). The same would happen to the Republicans if they made Pat Buchanan RNC chair. · 1 minute ago
Buchanan is not mainstream at all. Alas, the "heroin legalizers" as you put it, *are* the voice of the Libertarians.
Nov '11
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Bryan G. Stephens: BTW I have heard the libertarian argument made thatDoctors should not be licensed. This is because we are supposed to be such experts at figuring out if a doctor is good or not, we don't need any help finding a good doctor. We will all figure it out.
I cannot figure out when the guy working on my car is on the up and up or not, and some libertarians want me to have that same experience for heart surgery? · 20 minutes ago
Once again: Laws aren't magic. A license is legal permission to do something, is not a magical decree of competence. Do you not ever drive? I don't know about where you live, but there are plenty of horrible drivers who have licenses.
How would you decide on a heart surgeon? Would you accept any one with a license? Good luck with that. Is that how you decide to buy a car? Of course not, you do research. If you want to abdicate your responsibilities in such a manner when choosing a hear surgeon, that's your business.
Nov '11
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Highlama
Really? Is there anyone you know that can stick by the entire range of their principles in this world? Do you believe you do? · 2 minutes ago
You mean do I know anyone who lives a life consistent with their own values? I can't say for sure. It is an extremely personal question.
Do I? I'm trying. And I'll get there.
May '10
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
And slavery would have died out *eventually*.
Some things are wrong enough that we cannot wait. In our Republic that is the stuff of politics. The rights of blacks to be full citizens trumped the rights of shops to fail to serve them. You don't wait 5 years or 10 years or 20 years for things to change.
This sort of stance is not going to win votes in America. If you really want to change things, you have to have some give. It seems to me that you don't want to have any give, and would rather loose feeling right, than actually see America move in the direction you would like it to be. I cannot understand that point of view, so I guess we are at a fundamental stand still.
Nov '11
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Bryan G. Stephens
That way of thinking lead to a great defeat and the coming of the Great Society.
No thank you. Politics is the art of what is possible, not glorious defeat. · 6 minutes ago
To each his own. Again, maybe I'm old fashioned, but I remember when conservatives stood on principle. However, I'm not a conservative.
May '10
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Fred Cole
Bryan G. Stephens: BTW I have heard the libertarian argument made thatDoctors should not be licensed. This is because we are supposed to be such experts at figuring out if a doctor is good or not, we don't need any help finding a good doctor. We will all figure it out.
I cannot figure out when the guy working on my car is on the up and up or not, and some libertarians want me to have that same experience for heart surgery? · 20 minutes ago
Once again: Laws aren't magic. A license is legal permission to do something, isnota magical decree of competence. Do you not ever drive? I don't know about where you live, but there are plenty of horrible drivers who have licenses.
How would you decide on a heart surgeon? Would you accept any one with a license? Good luck with that. Is that how you decide to buy a car? Of course not, you do research. If you want to abdicate your responsibilities in such a manner when choosing a hear surgeon, that's your business. · 2 minutes ago
See below thanks to word limit.
Mar '11
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Bryan G. Stephens
Buchanan is not mainstream at all. Alas, the "heroin legalizers" as you put it, *are* the voice of the Libertarians.
But Buchanan is mainstream enough to appear on respectable conservative channels like Ricochet and Uncommon Knowledge. Yet there are enough other strong voices on the right to make it clear that his forays into Whackjobistan are not shared by the majority.
Alas, libertarianism has not gained enough momentum to attract a critical mass of people who are sympathetic toward Rand or Friedman but are much less strident and more practical in their interpretation. I think that a more moderate libertarianism could have mass appeal, but as long as Ron Paul is in the spotlight it won't happen.
Aug '10
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
A problem with the more strict and radical forms of Islam is that adherents will never give an inch. Despite the fact that the countries they come from are basket-cases, the more extreme believers have all the self-confidence of bullies. Look at what is happening in the Netherlands.
They think our tolerance makes us weak, and they are right, when tolerance leads to our wavering about our principles. They know nothing of religious pluralism. There are countries where, if you trim a Christmas tree, you will end up with your head trimmed right off your body.
Putting your foot down, and prohibiting cabbies from refusing passengers who are carrying a certain food product or who practice a certain religion--that's not being intolerant. That's being self-confident, and right. When a backward culture cows a more advanced, enlightened culture--shame on the latter.
I mean no disrespect to Muslims in general. As the saying goes, some of my best friends have been Muslims--Americanized Muslims. I am speaking of a particular kind of Muslim. Other religions have found ways to make accommodations to American culture. We shouldn't have to make unreasonable accommodations to theirs.
Nov '11
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Bryan G. Stephens
And slavery would have died out *eventually*.
Once again, you point to a horrible problem created by government action. Slavery cannot exist without a regime of property rights that recognizes people as property.
And just to clarify: I'm not interested in winning votes. I'm talking about ideas and ideals, right and wrong, politics and votes and elections aren't the discussion here.
But ideas, the things we're talking about matter because (in theory, at least) ideas are the beginning, they're the bedrock, it's what policy comes from.
I could give a damn about winning votes.
Dec '10
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Fred Cole: (Cont'd)
...
You people with your damn laws, you think they'll work magic. · 41 minutes ago
Wait which damn laws are we advocating here? The laws protecting your right to be a non-Muslim?
The airport is a severely limited market. You get off an airplane with your bottle of Chablis or your service dog and unless you've got a friend in town who has agreed to pick you up, you've got to get a cab. They're lined up such that first-in, first-out. You don't even have a choice, typically, of which cab to use. And some cabbie, based on your "being" (not behavior) in possession of lawful property refuses you the only public service to which you have access. It's absurd to suggest this guy's right of refusal supersedes your "being" in non-compliance with his religious principles. This is libertarianism in extremis. It's cultural suicide.