Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
In the latest Uncommon Knowledge, Dennis Prager (at around the 17 minute mark) begins telling a story to emphasize a point he was making about how Islam does not value liberty. He mentioned the Somali cab drivers at the airport in Minnesota refuse to allow passengers who carry alcohol or have dogs into their cabs.
By contrast, Mr. Prager got a call from a mailman in Colorado who is a fundamentalist Christian who said he, as a mailman, has to deliver pornography, and he is at least opposed, as a Christian, to pornography as Muslim is to alcohol or dogs. But, he delivers the pornography because he believes in freedom.
Forgive me, but am I the only one who noticed problems with this?
First of all, that man delivers pornography because he is paid to do so. It is his job. He is paid a generous salary, very generous benefits and will collect a very generous pension on my dime. So, while he may believe in freedom, he delivers it because he is paid.
Second, as far as I am able to tell (with limited research), those Minnesota Somali cab drivers, unlike the sanctimonious mailman, are not federal employees suckling on the public teat. More likely they are independent operators or they work for a cab company. If they are independent operators, who own or lease their cabs, its their business if they refuse, because of their belief system, to serve some customers.
This is a measure of values. Those cab drivers believe enough in Islam to stand on their principles, refuse money and risk the economic consequences. This mailman may claim to have an objection to pornography, but obviously not enough to stand on principle and refuse that government pay check, those generous government benefits, or that pension.
That is what freedom is. The freedom to associate or not associate with whom you choose based on your own personal values system. Those taxi drivers value Islam, the mailman values his government pension. To each his own, but it doesn't prove Islam is anti-freedom.
Addendum: If I've misunderstood, Dennis is invited to clarify things.
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Comments:
Aug '10
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Fred Cole
My freedom to what? Carry whatever I wish into his cab? It's his cab. My right to carry around whatever I wish ends when I enter his property, at which point he gets to set the conditions of me being there. · 16 minutes ago
Wrong. In most places, taxis are regulated. In NYC, for instance, taxi owners pay a considerable sum for taxi medallions, which are finite in number. In exchange for the medallion, they submit to regulation. That includes requirements to serve all customers, with certain exceptions, of course.
Nov '11
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Kevin Walker
Fred Cole
My freedom to what? Carry whatever I wish into his cab? It's his cab. My right to carry around whatever I wish ends when I enter his property, at which point he gets to set the conditions of me being there. · 16 minutes ago
Wrong. In most places, taxis are regulated. In NYC, for instance, taxi owners pay a considerable sum for taxi medallions, which are finite in number. In exchange for the medallion, they submit to regulation. That includes requirements to serve all customers, with certain exceptions, of course. · 1 minute ago
Yeah, I'm opposed to that too. (And I have good company, Bill Buckley, as part of his mayoral platform, said anyone who wanted to should be able to drive cab.) Licensing regimes for taxis are some of the worst examples of abuse of power by cities to protect special interests at the expense of the public, private property and personal liberty.
Mar '11
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
I still remain very unconvinced that Somali cab-drivers are doing anything wrong.
If the argument is that cabs are regulated and therefore cannot discriminate, the answer is that medallion systems are horribly uncompetitive.
If the argument is that there aren't enough non-Muslim cabbies in Minneapolis, the law of supply and demand will fix it.
If the argument is that Muslims would really like to enforce alcohol bans through coercion, what about Southern Baptists and dry counties?
And finally, if the argument is that Islam is, by its nature, anti-American: this may well be, but the First Amendment does not have an asterisk. If we start categorizing the right of religious freedom based on the motives of that religion, we commit the exact same fallacy that Kathleen Sibelius did when she deigned to determine which religious organizations are allowed exemptions from the contraceptive mandate and which are not.
It is dismaying to see how quickly conservatives discard their beliefs about a free society when it comes to Islam. We have commenters in this thread defending the ADA and the medallion system. Really?
Edited on June 22, 2012 at 12:22amMay '10
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Go all the way, guys. Tell us why the cabbies should be allowed to forbid women or Jews to ride with them.
May '10
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Basic decency for your fellow man is not too much to ask in the public sphere. ADA may be poorly written and clearly is poorly used, but I am all for a reasonable expectation of parking spaces and wheelchair ramps. Sometimes this is taken to far. That is a reason to change how we do things, not toss out the whole idea.
Honestly, it is no wonder the Libertarian party gets less than 1% of the vote every 4 years.
Apr '11
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
I disagree. It seems to me their just expressing their right to freely associate. It may be offensive and ultimately self-defeating, but that' their problem, not mine.
I'm calling "Bull-Puckey" on that Mailman! He may deliver that pornography in quasi-violation of his conscience, but if he were deciding what he could,or could not, morally deliver on any given day, he would quickly be without a job and in very close proximity to a jail sentence.
Mar '11
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
First of all, there is a big difference between refusing service to a customer based on their behavior rather than their identity.
Second, I seem to recall a number of conservative groups defending the Augusta National Golf Club's right to refuse membership to women. If gender discrimination is acceptable for social reasons, it is certainly acceptable for religious ones (I find it appalling in all cases, but I don't think it should be law).
Third, in a free market this would be no problem. If anyone could drive a cab, then you could have the choice between an intolerant cabbie, and a tolerant cabbie who charged $5 extra. Is it worth $5 to you not to support a business whose values offend you to the core? It is to me.
Apr '12
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
When I was a cab driver in Minneapolis (serving the airport) we all worked for The Company, they may have independent cabbies now but I doubt it.
I don't like characterizing mailmen as suckling off the public teat. Sure they work for the government but they're not that highly paid (government janitors tend to do better) and would get similar compensation from a private company. If you've got an issue with the Post Office being government owned, fine ... but don't blame the mailman.
May '10
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Mendel:
So, let's start with #1. Are you then not OK with the cabbie not taking a Jew? They did do this by the way, refused Jews. Just their freedom right?
#2. Augusta Club is a Club, not a general service. People join clubs. Refusing service in a cab is a different animal. An all Girls School is OK. An all girls cab is not.
#3. There can only be so many cabs in line at the airport. If some of them are filled with Jew Hating cabbies, then if I am a Jew, my options are reduced. Since there is a limited space (alas not a perfect free market), I am all for not giving any of those spaces to racist bigots.
I still want an answer, directly from our freedom loving libertarian minded folks:
Should it be legal to refuse to give a cab ride to someone based on race?
Nov '11
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Bryan G. Stephens:
I still want an answer, directly from our freedom loving libertarian minded folks:
Should it be legal to refuse to give a cab ride to someone based on race? · 1 minute ago
Absolutely. If you have a problem with that, the free market would most likely quickly correct it.
Mar '11
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Bryan,
first off, I'm not a hardcore libertarian -more like a squish - for whatever it's worth.
To #1: I find it appalling to refuse service based on identity (race, religion or otherwise), and I am okay with some types of laws which forbid it (to an extent). Like I said before, there is a big distinction between refusing service based on identity vs. behavior.
#2: I don't think we should regulate cabs much differently than golf clubs if both are in an open market. As long as competitors can enter the business and offer different terms, let the market deal with regulation. Of course cab driving is highly regulated, but the solution here is to drop those stupid restrictions.
#3: When it comes to the airport, I have no problem with revoking the priviliges of any cab company which discriminates. Airports are necessarily publicly-run facilities, with limited opportunities, and as the owners we (the public) can tell discriminators to take a hike.
Edited on June 22, 2012 at 12:57amMay '11
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Bryan G. Stephens:
Should it be legal to refuse to give a cab ride to someone based on race? · 0 minutes ago
Absolutely. It's their cab, and I believe their right to property and freedom of association outweighs any moral problems with such discrimination.
There are also much less onerous ways to deal with this than government regulation. Read The Politically Incorrect Guide to Capitalism; it has an excellent chapter on this subject. Organize a boycott, shame them socially; if they work for a company, complain to their boss.
Re Point #3: Of course there can only be so many cabs in line; there can also be only so many stores on a block or in a town. Does this, then, justify regulation?
Re Point #2: People don't have to take a taxi either. They can walk, or use mass transit, or rent a car. Many hotels offer shuttle services.
Dec '10
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Is it really a property rights issue? Or is it an issue of force, either by commission or, in this case, omission. In one case, the service provider does not believe he should compel others to adopt his principles. In the other, the service provider uses the power of refusal to impose his principles on others.
And there is definitely discrimination based on identity on the part of the cabbies. They know anyone with a dog (service dogs are absolute pros and would not damage property) or carrying a bottle of wine they just brought home from the California wine country is a non-(Sharia abiding) Muslim. End of story.
Do you really see no distinction between the two in their willingness to use power aggressively to promote their values? The cabbies aren't just forgoing alcohol based on their religion. They're refusing service to others, based on their religion.
BTW, even the Catholic church does not compel its adherents to forgo birth control (which is obvious given the majority of Catholics who partake). The church claims moral authority, not power, unlike the state and Muslim cabbies. The Church knows that ultimately, the conscience cannot be compelled.
Dec '11
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Fred Cole,
Do you actually know what this mailman thinks? Do you have such a l0w opinion of your fellow human beings that this man's motivation is only monetary? Do like making straw men?
Please state how Islam is pro-freedom since you find that anti-freedom argument wanting.
Edited on June 22, 2012 at 1:10amMar '11
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Western Chauvinist:
And there is definitely discrimination based on identity on the part of the cabbies. They know anyone with a dog (service dogs are absolute pros and would notdamage property) or carrying a bottle of wine they just brought home from the California wine country is a non-(Sharia abiding) Muslim.
I doubt it's based on identity, because if these cabbies are working downtown Minneapolis or the airport, they know that >95% of their customers are not Muslim, yet presumably they do not give them an identity test before letting them ride. If serving non-Muslims was so offensive to them, they would be unable to make any profit without violating their deepest values.
First: the "power" of the cabbie is (should be) granted by the market. The market can just as easily take that power away.
Second: how is this different from the pharmacist who won't sell Plan B?
Edited on June 22, 2012 at 1:12amNov '11
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
10 cents: Fred Cole,
Do you actually know what this mailman thinks? Do you have such a l0w opinion of your fellow human beings that this man's motivation is only monetary? Do like making straw men? · 4 minutes ago
I have a low opinion of federal mail carriers.
Do I know what that mailman thinks? No. I'm not a mind reader. All I can do is judge his actions. His actions show he values his benefits and his fat pension more than he objects to pornography.
May '11
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
The Somali cabbies cannot really impose their principles on others. They cannot force their riders to give up their alcohol or dogs, they can only make that a condition of service. Telling someone 'I will not do x for you if you do not do y' is an entirely different ballpark from forcing someone to do y.
Aug '10
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Wow, Fred, this is an implosion of John Derbyshire proportions!
Nov '11
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Because someone chooses to use their property to provide a service to the public, they lose their property rights and their freedom of association?
Nov '11
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Pardon?