Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
In the latest Uncommon Knowledge, Dennis Prager (at around the 17 minute mark) begins telling a story to emphasize a point he was making about how Islam does not value liberty. He mentioned the Somali cab drivers at the airport in Minnesota refuse to allow passengers who carry alcohol or have dogs into their cabs.
By contrast, Mr. Prager got a call from a mailman in Colorado who is a fundamentalist Christian who said he, as a mailman, has to deliver pornography, and he is at least opposed, as a Christian, to pornography as Muslim is to alcohol or dogs. But, he delivers the pornography because he believes in freedom.
Forgive me, but am I the only one who noticed problems with this?
First of all, that man delivers pornography because he is paid to do so. It is his job. He is paid a generous salary, very generous benefits and will collect a very generous pension on my dime. So, while he may believe in freedom, he delivers it because he is paid.
Second, as far as I am able to tell (with limited research), those Minnesota Somali cab drivers, unlike the sanctimonious mailman, are not federal employees suckling on the public teat. More likely they are independent operators or they work for a cab company. If they are independent operators, who own or lease their cabs, its their business if they refuse, because of their belief system, to serve some customers.
This is a measure of values. Those cab drivers believe enough in Islam to stand on their principles, refuse money and risk the economic consequences. This mailman may claim to have an objection to pornography, but obviously not enough to stand on principle and refuse that government pay check, those generous government benefits, or that pension.
That is what freedom is. The freedom to associate or not associate with whom you choose based on your own personal values system. Those taxi drivers value Islam, the mailman values his government pension. To each his own, but it doesn't prove Islam is anti-freedom.
Addendum: If I've misunderstood, Dennis is invited to clarify things.
- Comment (278)
- · Quote
- · UnfollowFollow (12)
Comments:
May '11
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
I took note of that as well. In fact, when he first started telling the story, I assumed he was going to praise the taxi cab drivers for their moral stance and exercising their right to refuse passengers on religious grounds.
Wrong religion, maybe?
Jan '12
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
That's a really terrific point, Fred!
I think it's based on differing definitions of freedom. The traditional Western definition of freedom is the ability to choose the good (i.e. not deliver pornography), whereas the liberal and libertarian view is the ability to do whatever we want without anyone judging or impeding.
How did Praeger respond?
Nov '11
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Chris Hurtubise: That's a really terrific point, Fred!
I think it's based on differing definitions of freedom. The traditional Western definition of freedom is the ability to choose the good (i.e. not deliver pornography), whereas the liberal and libertarian view is the ability to do whatever we want without anyone judging or impeding.
How did Praeger respond? · 2 minutes ago
Your "good" is not my "good," sir. And my definition of freedom has me doing what I wish so long as I don't agress against other people. You can judge me however you wish, and you are also free to do so, so long as you don't agress against me. See how that works?
Nov '11
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
(Cont'd)
I'm not sure where your allegedly traditional "Western" definition of freedom comes from, but whenever I get confused, I turn to my good friend Noah Webster:
Definition of FREEDOM
1: the quality or state of being free: asa : the absence of necessity, coercion, or constraint in choice or actionb : liberation from slavery or restraint or from the power of another : independencec : the quality or state of being exempt or released usually from something onerous <freedom from care>d : ease, facility <spoke the language with freedom>e : the quality of being frank, open, or outspoken <answered with freedom>f : improper familiarityg : boldness of conception or executionh : unrestricted use <gave him the freedom of their home>2a : a political rightb : franchise, privilege
You are of course free to make up your own definition, but so far, the English language seems to agree with me.
Dec '11
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
My complaint with the cab driver is limited to his refusal to allow alcohol. Animals are a different issue; my cat was often refused taxi service in NYC by non-Muslims. Animals can do damage to vehicles, particularly when stressed... if you know what I mean... so I do support a driver's right to protect his physical property!
Edited on June 22, 2012 at 8:50amJun '10
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
His point was, the Somali-immigrant cab drivers don't value YOUR freedom whatsoever. They haven't assimilated. It's not even a balancing act for them. You simply don't have any rights that conflict with Sharia. They value obedience to Allah above any constitutional rights that you have. If they constituted the majority in America (as they think today,) you'd have no freedom of conscience beyond Islam, they'd have no freedom of conscience beyond Islam, but they don't care. They value religious obedience--not rights. That's fine, but that's not America. In contrast, the Catholics just want the right to follow their own conscience--not make you follow it. That's the difference.
Mar '11
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
I will see Fred's complaint and raise him one further: don't most of us support the right of Christian pharmacists to refuse to sell the morning-after pill based on religious objections?
Obviously alcohol and aborifacients are not the same, but in both cases someone is refusing a service not based on the negative effects to themselves, but on the perceived immoral action the customer is bringing on themselves.
Jun '11
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
I was about to make the same point. Your reply is spot on. While Fred Cole makes a good point about what religious freedom really means, Prager's larger point is that Islamism is all about denying rights, not respecting freedom. If the cab driver had his way, no one would be allowed to smoke or own dogs.
And tell me, Mr. Mel Foil, who are you, and why you've stolen Etoiledunard's atavar??
Jun '10
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Mendel: I will see Fred's complaint and raise him one further: don't most of us support the right of Christian pharmacists to refuse to sell the morning-after pill based on religious objections?
Obviously alcohol and aborifacients are not the same, but in both cases someone is refusing a service not based on the negative effects to themselves, but on the perceived immoral action the customer is bringing on themselves.
I think that's a decision for the owner of the pharmacy. If the owner says you (an employee) need to sell that product, and you can't go along, you should find a different pharmacy to work in. In some cases, the pharmacy will pair you with a pharmacist that doesn't have a problem providing the drug. That works too.
Nov '11
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
My freedom to what? Carry whatever I wish into his cab? It's his cab. My right to carry around whatever I wish ends when I enter his property, at which point he gets to set the conditions of me being there.
Mar '11
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Mel Foil
Mendel: I will see Fred's complaint and raise him one further: don't most of us support the right of Christian pharmacists to refuse to sell the morning-after pill based on religious objections?
Obviously alcohol and aborifacients are not the same, but in both cases someone is refusing a service not based on the negative effects to themselves, but on the perceived immoral action the customer is bringing on themselves.
I think that's a decision for the owner of the pharmacy. If the owner says you (an employee) need to sell that product, and you can't go along, you should find a different pharmacy to work in. In some cases, the pharmacy will pair you with a pharmacist that doesn't have a problem providing the drug. That works too. · 2 minutes ago
Yes, but what is the fundamental difference between the pharmacist and the cab driver? Both are private businessmen refusing a service, in fields where the customer can find alternative sellers.
Jun '10
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Colin B Lane
....And tell me, Mr. Mel Foil, who are you, and why you've stolen Etoiledunard's atavar??
I changed my screen name. The old one (Star of the North) is the MN state motto. I'm not even sure MN still deserves it. I decided that I don't. :)
Jul '11
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
nevermind
Edited on June 22, 2012 at 1:10amJun '10
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Fred Cole
My freedom to what? Carry whatever I wish into his cab? It's his cab. My right to carry around whatever I wish ends when I enter his property, at which point he gets to set the conditions of me being there.
They also wouldn't take the seeing-eye-dogs of blind people.
Jul '11
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
nevermind
Edited on June 22, 2012 at 1:09amNov '11
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Mel Foil
Fred Cole
My freedom to what? Carry whatever I wish into his cab? It's his cab. My right to carry around whatever I wish ends when I enter his property, at which point he gets to set the conditions of me being there.
They also wouldn't take the seeing-eye-dogs of blind people. · 5 minutes ago
Yeah. In Islam dogs are unclean. Its still his cab. I don't get how being disabled means we no longer respect fundamental property rights.
You can disagree with it, but this is a matter of property rights.
Jun '10
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
I don't remember all the issues around this, but I thought the problem was that just about every cab at the airport was driven by a Somali. There wasn't any competition to go to. I also think that the airport was state or city-owned, and thus pushed for a ban on the restrictions. It's state property, so private interests are subject to their rules whether the cab is privately owned or not. That's all I recall. People can add their own angle on this.
Jul '11
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
nevermind
Edited on June 22, 2012 at 1:09amAug '10
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
I don't know if it's anti-freedom to refuse to take a passenger on religious grounds, but there's certainly something about it that is in opposition to the American ideal.
If a taxi driver refused me because I was carrying alcohol, I would complain to his boss or to the Taxi & Limousine Commission. If a driver refused to take a passenger with a seeing-eye dog, I think that would be a violation of the law.
A real problem would occur if many taxi drivers in a city shared the same religious convictions and refused to take certain passengers on religious grounds. If you were a delivery person for a liquor store that depended on taxis to make certain deliveries, and you had a hard time finding a driver willing to admit you into his cab, I think you would be justified to report this to the authorities and to expect them to take corrective action.
Amish people don't take high-tech jobs, and Orthodox Jews don't work factory jobs on Saturdays. Perhaps a reluctant Muslim cabbie might be more comfortable working in a halal food store.
Jan '12
Re: Dennis Prager's Taxi Drivers and Mailmen
Fred Cole: (Cont'd)
I'm not sure where your allegedly traditional "Western" definition of freedom comes from, but whenever I get confused, I turn to my good friend Noah Webster...
My apologies if my comment offended you, Fred.
I would argue that the traditional definition of freedom is as I said the freedom to pursue the good (as defined by Aquinas, surely referencing the Ancients). The freedom to be left alone, which you site, has become a secondary definition and the more prominent one since the Enlightenment. In my comment I meant 'traditional' in the longer view of things, mea culpa for not being clearer.
In American conservatism I think there is a happy blending of the two that was not present in other cultures.
I think that line of questioning gets at the root of the debate. With respect to Somali Cabdrivers, Postman, Catholic Employers,et al.: What is true freedom? How is my freedom to interact with that of others?
Edited on June 22, 2012 at 12:10am