Democrats are from Harvard; Republicans are from DeVry
Everyone, it seems, hates for-profit education. The Democrats, led by Senator Tom Harkin, are trying to regulate it by tightening up the federal rules on student loans. Famous hedge fund investor Steve Eisman has schools like University of Phoenix and DeVry in his sights. He's testified in Congress about shady loan practices at some of these places; about loose standards for job placement; about the practice of overburdening students with loans while preparing them for low-paying jobs.
(Eisman is also a major short-seller in the sector. So having him publicly run down the industry is not only good for Senator Harkin and the regulation-happy Democrats, it's also going to make him rich. Richer, I mean.)
No one, of course, worries that federal student loans are going to students at, say, Yale, with its sky-high tuition and plentiful course offerings in the -- how do I put this? -- less job-centered disciplines. Put it this way: they don't teach anything like "(Re)-Presenting the Modern: Studies in Gender Identity and Power in the 18th Century French Lyric" at DeVry. They teach things like how to maintain an office IT system and how to be a veterinary assistant.
Heather Smith at the Daily Caller brings it into perspective:
Not everyone is cut out to spend four years in a dorm at State U. Some must work as they attend college. Others spent the traditional college years on other pursuits and are trying to catch up and get a degree while juggling family and career responsibilities. Still others don’t get serious about doing the work it takes to obtain a degree until they’ve spent a few years in the workforce.
As a result, they are looking for different things in a college than other students. They like the convenience of online courses or night school. They have no use for the traditional accoutrements of campus life – the student union, expensive climbing walls, student activities, ball games and the like.
That's putting it nicely. What's really going on here is snobbery. Pure and simple. And power. Even purer and simpler. For-profit colleges aren't part of the vast network of teachers' unions and community college organizations that feed the corrupt, failing, indefensible Democrat-Education Complex.
Harkin, and the Obama administration, should be ashamed. No, not ashamed: they should be punished. They should be forced to a lifetime of haircuts, computer repair, IT help, veterinary care, and basic bookkeeping all performed by political science majors from Princeton.
Got a problem with your flat screen? Call a poetry major.
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May '10
Re: Democrats are from Harvard; Republicans are from DeVry
Actually Rob, Liberals are from Harvard, conservatives are from Auburn. But hey, it's a start.
On a (slightly) more serious note, one of the most brilliant and capible engineers I ever worked with in my career got his degree from an ITT school. One of the dumbest and most incompetent graduated from Rensselaer...
May '10
Re: Democrats are from Harvard; Republicans are from DeVry
Thanks for this Rob. This is my life these days as I follow the for-profit school companies for Wall Street (prince! prince!)
The government's preamble supporting the regulations for "Gainful Employment" which dictates the "right" level of debt for a given occupation, reads like a socialist manifesto for the role of the state. The basic argument is that students at vocational schools (poor, minority, less successful academically) are unable to make good decisions for themselves and so it is incumbent on the government to protect them from their choices.
The rules completely second-guess the market's ability to correct for high prices or sub-optimal outcomes. That many of these schools have been in business for 60+ years they take as proof of nothing.
The solution the government prefers is that vocational students attend community colleges where the cost of dropping out is born by state and municipal taxpayers rather than the students themselves. Yet states simply can't afford to absorb all the students that want and need this training.
If you consider drop-out rate differentials, loan defaults, tax subsidies and corporate taxes, taxpayers are better off with for-profit schools serving the vocational sector.
May '10
Re: Democrats are from Harvard; Republicans are from DeVry
Rob Long
What's really going on here is snobbery. Pure and simple. And power. Even purer and simpler.
Hmmm... Weren't we just talking about hubris? It's always about power, which generally means money. The snobbery is just an affectation amongst these goons.
And to Will's point, increasingly the very best and most capable engineers I find here in Silicon Valley got their degrees in India. (Funny thing is that they can be just as snobby about their educational credentials, and they are not over-impressed with American engineers.)
May '10
Re: Democrats are from Harvard; Republicans are from DeVry
Rob, I take some issue with aligning politics and education, for three reasons:
May '10
Re: Democrats are from Harvard; Republicans are from DeVry
To be fair, we're talking apples and oranges here. Your DV/ITT grad is installing hand-held POS devices for servers at Appleby's, not designing rockets in Silicon Valley.
May '10
Re: Democrats are from Harvard; Republicans are from DeVry
Ottoman -- To be fair to Rob, I think he was simply going for a snappy headline and some gentle self-deprecation. The real issue are the double-standards being applied based solely on -- as he correctly says -- snobbery.
Jul '10
Re: Democrats are from Harvard; Republicans are from DeVry
Where will Mr. Long get his Maserati serviced?
I don't think Ottoman, that Rob is arguing against Caltech, MIT, etc. He's arguing FOR for profit education, and its place in the crosshairs of federal regulators. The intellectual elites have made it clear their disdain for the American people. A lot of American people go or went to these online or Vo-Tech schools. The result of these regulations will increase the costs of your average American in fly-over country to get their education in automobile repair, hairdressing, etc.
Re: Democrats are from Harvard; Republicans are from DeVry
Michael, I've been in Brother Rob's car and it's an unassuming, practical, American-made SUV. But let's all urge him to buy a Maserati or, my favorite, a Bentley Continental GT. As long as he gives me a ride.
May '10
Re: Democrats are from Harvard; Republicans are from DeVry
Trace Urdan
Ottoman -- To be fair to Rob, I think he was simply going for a snappy headline and some gentle self-deprecation. The real issue are the double-standards being applied based solely on -- as he correctly says -- snobbery. · Jul 30 at 10:54am
That's a fair point, and a reasonable interpretation.
May '10
Re: Democrats are from Harvard; Republicans are from DeVry
Trace Urdan
To be fair, we're talking apples and oranges here. Your DV/ITT grad is installing hand-held POS devices for servers at Appleby's, not designing rockets in Silicon Valley. · Jul 30 at 10:52am
G.A. Dean - There may be some confusion here (I've experienced it myself, at least) between ITT and IIT.
Edited on Jul 30, 2010 at 12:16pmMay '10
Re: Democrats are from Harvard; Republicans are from DeVry
Ottoman Umpire
G.A. Dean - There may be some confusion here (I've experienced it myself, at least) between ITT and IIT. · Jul 30 at 12:14pm
Oh, I hear all about IIT. There's quite a club of them out here. They're not shy about explaining the excellence of the place. (Said in fun... some very good friends from IIT)
May '10
Re: Democrats are from Harvard; Republicans are from DeVry
Trace Urdan
To be fair, we're talking apples and oranges here. Your DV/ITT grad is installing hand-held POS devices for servers at Appleby's, not designing rockets in Silicon Valley. · Jul 30 at 10:52am
Even in the rocket business, where you'd expect the US citizenship requirement for a security clearance to give you thoroughly all-American workforce, we have more than the expected share of Indian and Chinese-born-and-educated engineers (naturalized US citizens, of course). Most of them did grad school here in the US though.
Jul '10
Re: Democrats are from Harvard; Republicans are from DeVry
Rob (and Trace) -- I take your points about over-regulation, but it's also important to recognize that there has been a real and significant problem with outright fraud and criminal behavior in a lot of vocational schools. I remember working on this issue briefly a few years ago: people would get federal money to learn, e.g., how to repair computers, would learn nothing, would use up their grant money, and the operator would skip town. For example: http://articles.latimes.com/1997-01-18/local/me-19724_1_pell-grant-program. My vague sense -- and it is only a sense -- is that Harkin doesn't care about DeVry: he cares about Joe's Computer Training "School" that rips people off. No one has ever accused Harkin of being a legislative craftsman, and maybe the regs are overbroad. But the origins of this, at least, are not about snobbery: "(Re)-Presenting the Modern: Studies in Gender Identity and Power in the 18th Century French Lyric", on the other hand, is.
By the way, Rob, what'd you get in that class? ;-)
Jun '10
Re: Democrats are from Harvard; Republicans are from DeVry
While the for-profits can be guilty of ourtright fraud, I'd argue that plenty of accredited colleges are just as guilty. Students bringing federal $$$ are welcomed at both, regardless of the fit or likelihood of anything useful being learned.
I remember over 25 years ago several co-workers with elite bachelors degrees went to Chubb Institute for computer networking training and were quite pleased. A few years ago a nighborhood kid who was always fascinated with cars went to Lincoln Tech here in NJ and after completing a short program was hired as an auto mechanic for $75K. His high school classmates were still deciding which fraternity to rush and he had a great head start doing important work that suited his talents.
Some of these for-profits have good track records. Sure, the scams take advantage of the most vulnerable, but that's the case with any field, not just education and training.
So how much intervention should government have? I'm always wary of government involvement and growing the nanny state. Health care, home mortgatges, and education are probably the three industries most poked, prodded, and interfered with of any. How's that working out....
May '10
Re: Democrats are from Harvard; Republicans are from DeVry
Hi Jonathan -- Welcome here. I'm excited to have to in the mix.
This sector has been the focus of my work life for 13 years. (I'll try to contain myself.) The simplest point I guess is that the Department already has very broad powers to stamp out abuse and the CLC issue you cite was an outlier that was dealt with through the existing regs. I would also say that the "criminal behavior" has not been shown to be a truly prevalent problem. Though anecdotes from bloggers abound, no student-based suit has ever prevailed in court. I would argue that these anecdotes are a smokescreen to avoid discussing the real issue:
How much subsidy do we has a society want to bear to give those at the bottom end of the socio-economic ladder a shot at climbing out? And how much cost should the student bear for his/her success/failure?
May '10
Re: Democrats are from Harvard; Republicans are from DeVry
Part of what is so frustrating is the government wants to hold the schools responsible, not just for outcomes (completion/job placement) but their choices about how much debt to pull down and what their salary is. Not even Senator Harkin has credibly impugned the quality of the instruction offered. And having toured many, many schools and community colleges, I can tell you that in most cases the for-profit schools have smaller classes, smaller schools, more attentive administrators, better equipment, and FAR better job placement services.
In all his time serving on HELP (under Boehner/Kennedy) and in the redraft of HEOA Harkin never uttered a peep about any of this. This is purely mid-term politics. He sees this as a red-meat issue for the base and a way to get his name in the newspapers.
Jun '10
Re: Democrats are from Harvard; Republicans are from DeVry
Re: holding the school responsible for how much debt a student pulls down.
I'm curious to know what type of financial information is provided to the kids who are considering these for-profits. Is it presented in an understandable format for unsophisticated teens and their parents? I'm guessing the population served would have lower than average likelihood of seasoned, financially savy parents reading the fine print on loan agreements and the like.
My own daughter is starting her sophmore year in college. She's quite bright, has always had a job, is a partner in an LLC, & knows the value of a dollar (sort of.) But she would be clueless trying to navigate the college loan world. Are teens even capable of absorbing the long term consequences? I don't know if they are. Add in language barriers for many of the families and it would be pretty easy to snooker a naive kid.
A bit off topic, but starting in NJ this year, all students must complete a financial literacy course in order to graduate.
May '10
Re: Democrats are from Harvard; Republicans are from DeVry
That, StickerShock, is the best news I've read all day.
May '10
Re: Democrats are from Harvard; Republicans are from DeVry
StickerShock: Re: holding the school responsible for how much debt a student pulls down.
I'm curious to know what type of financial information is provided to the kids who are considering these for-profits. Is it presented in an understandable format for unsophisticated teens and their parents? I'm guessing the population served would have lower than average likelihood of seasoned, financially savy parents reading the fine print on loan agreements and the like. · Jul 31 at 8:20am
Fair criticism and exactly (I think) what the government should be focused on. Make the choice crystal clear to the prospective student -- but then let the student make the choice how to direct their own benefits. In my personal experience many students transfer from low-cost community colleges into higher-cost for-profit programs and are perfectly aware of the financial decision they've made.
Re: Democrats are from Harvard; Republicans are from DeVry
What I'm really talking about here is choice. Fancy college degrees aren't for everyone. And of course students who borrow a lot of money (and the taxpayers who backstop those loans) deserve some consumer protection. But it's not clear to me that what Harkin et al are up to is consumer protection. It looks more like they're protecting a sub-par education monopoly (the community college system) at the expense of an efficient, effective, consumer-responsive system (the for-profit colleges).
And I guess a wider point is, whose side should we be on? I'm not making a cultural point -- I'm proud of my education, and I'll never surrender the smart badge to the left -- but maybe it's time to let some of the air out of what's become a pretty rigid class system in this country.