Defense Department Review of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" Repeal Issues
David Limbaugh ·
Dec 2, 2010 at 6:48pm
I am passing along, without comment, the link to the Defense Department's official report, for those of who are interested in reviewing. To quote Mark Levin again, "Thank me."
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Re: Defense Department Review of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" Repeal Issues
And, Diane, just in case you think I've just violated the spirit of Ricochet by posting something without comment, let me throw out another link (an article saying John McCain suggests repeal of Don't Ask, Don't Tell might cause "troop exodus"), which might provoke some debate. If not, sue me. If you do I promise I will file responsive pleadings, unlike the federal government in Missouri Lt. Gov. Peter Kinder's (my high school debate partner, btw) lawsuit re Obamacare, which Holder's DOJ has flagrantly, flippantly, and arrogantly ignored. This administration believes it is above the law -- that statement should provoke/evoke comments too.
Re: Defense Department Review of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" Repeal Issues
David the link is not working (unless it is something wrong on my end).
Re: Defense Department Review of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" Repeal Issues
Tommy: Sorry. I think it's corrected now. Please check.
May '10
Re: Defense Department Review of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" Repeal Issues
McCain stressed the fact that 12% of respondents of the Pentagon survey "would not want to stay in the military absent the law."
I can only argue from anecdotal evidence, but nevertheless I think this is nonsense. That the 12% responded this way is undoubtedly true, however I question the further claim that these responses reflect the actual preferences of the respondents. It is a principle of economics and statistical analysis that preferences are only truly expressed in action. A respondent can tell you whatever he/she likes but one can only really become aware of a respondent's preferences when he/she acts in accordance with his/her judgment. I can tell you that I prefer Coke to Pepsi, but knowledge of this can only genuinely be attained when it is observed that I drink Coke over Pepsi. Unfortunately, the actual preferences of the combat personnel surveyed can only be determined after the repeal of DADT.
Furthermore, given the anecdotal evidence that I am privy to, I believe that, given the litany of opportunities and benefits offered by the military, it simply is not the case that 12% of the military would leave if DADT was repealed.
Edited on Dec 2, 2010 at 8:17pmOct '10
Re: Defense Department Review of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" Repeal Issues
Interesting. I've read different perspectives on this; one the one hand, I support gay equality--but, on the other hand, the military is a tough institution, and it isn't possible for an outsider like me to judge this issue.
Re: Defense Department Review of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" Repeal Issues
Link working now, David, and thanks. Too tired tonight to read 200+ pages, but the gist is that repeal of DADT will cause some short term problems, but nothing that will hurt the military and those problems will subside.
My initial response is to roar with displeasure that we needed a 9 month investigation and a report to tell us the obvious about ourselves.
Is there anyone who doesn't know human nature? Haven't we been through these changes before with exactly the predicted result occurring: Blacks freed, blacks voting, women voting, women in the military, blacks in a desegregated military, interracial marriage. All of those were controversial and met with predictions of societal apocalypse. Opposition to any of those things seem silly now, don't they? So too will opposition to gays in the military someday.
So get on with it already.
Prejudging a group based upon an inherited trait having no bearing on ability is a sign of stupidity. Let those who want to leave the military if gays are admitted get out.
I'd rather go to war with smarter soldiers. War is a thinking endeavor.
Jul '10
Re: Defense Department Review of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" Repeal Issues
What I find frustrating is that no one had defined the scope of this issue. To hear opponents of repeal talk, you'd think our front-line units would be overrun with flamboyant gays, something like Gay Pride comes to the Hindu Kush.
Really? Let's assume that gays are 5% of the population. Given their mostly-urban, largely college-educated demographic - and their general lifestyle choices, it's hard for me to believe that many will be attracted to the rigors and regimentation of the military.
So, then, let's assume that 2% of our troops are gay. Most of our troops do not serve in front-line units, they serve in logistic, support and administrative roles. It's quite easy to avoid service in an infantry unit these days. As a matter of fact, the Army and the Marines pretty much require soldiers to self-select for combat units: they want troops with the self-motivation to go out, carry 80 pounds of gear in 100-degree heat and kill people.
So we can assume gays in front-line units will be considerably less than 1% of the total. Heck, that's not disruption, that's a mascot.
May '10
Re: Defense Department Review of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" Repeal Issues
Here's a way to test McCain's appeal to the 12% figure: Was the desegregation of the military in 1951 followed by an exdous of servicemen, one attributable to the desegregation?
The parallels are similar in this context. Its argued that soldiers and marines in active duty combat units are sufficiently opposed to the repeal of DADT to at least warrant the postponement of the repeal. Surely, the opposition to desegregation expressed by servicemen in the 1950s was greater in magnitude than the current to opposition the reapeal of DADT. Washington correspondent Kerry Eleveld writes that,
"'Prior to President Truman’s 1948 executive order integrating the armed forces," said DOD spokeswoman Cynthia Smith, "our preliminary research shows that branches of the armed forces undertook a number of modestly sized surveys of the attitudes of enlisted and nonenlisted troops concerning racial issues, integration, and morale.'"
So we know that surveys were taken but finding the results has proven difficult. However, according to Bridgette P. LaVictoire,
....to be continued
Edited on Dec 2, 2010 at 9:11pmMay '10
Re: Defense Department Review of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" Repeal Issues
....continued
"The Pentagon has been using these 1942-1947 surveys in order to extol the need for the surveys in the repeal process of Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell. Unlike today, however, where 75% of Americans favor an end to DADT, one month before the order came down to integrate the military, 63% of Americans favored segregation in the military. Only 26% supported integration in a Gallup poll done at the time. Roughly three quarters of the Air Force favored separate training schools, combat and ground crews. As many as 85% of white soldiers thought that they should have separate service clubs in army camps."
Furthermore, LaVictoire writes,
"[General Curtis] LeMay was...known to cite a 1925 Army War College study of “negros in combat” that concluded that African-Americans were less intelligent, ambitious and courageous. It also stated that they were unfit for military service and should not be flying planes. General LeMay was head of the fledgling US Air Force. The Air Force would have trouble integrating fully well into the 1970’s despite Truman’s order."
....to be continued
May '10
Re: Defense Department Review of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" Repeal Issues
....continued
So while I haven't witnessed any evidence that suggests desegregation caused a mass exodus of servicemen in the 1950s (when military-related bigotry aimed at the group the desegregation had in mind was undoubtedly greater than any military-related bigotry aimed at gays today), I conclude that our military leadership has had a history of appeals to empirically falsified studies and surveys conducted by the government.
Edited on Dec 2, 2010 at 8:58pmJul '10
Re: Defense Department Review of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" Repeal Issues
Go to the Punchbowl on Oahu. Go to Arlington. Go to our military cemeteries in France. Under some of those markers lie men who were gay.
When you approach a soldier in an airport to offer your appreciation, do you think to first inquire about his sexual orientation?
Whoever devotes his or her life to defense of my liberty deserves my thanks. Without exception.
Edited on Dec 2, 2010 at 9:07pmJun '10
Re: Defense Department Review of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" Repeal Issues
Kenneth: Go to the Punchbowl on Oahu. Go to Arlington. Go to our military cemeteries in France. Under some of those markers lie men who were gay.
When you approach a soldier in an airport to offer your appreciation, do you think to first inquire about his sexual orientation?
Whoever devotes his or her life to defense of my liberty deserves my thanks. Without exception.
They weren't "gay" when they were on duty. They were celibate, and quiet. One gay man in the barracks is not a problem. But when you get two, or three, or more twenty-year-olds who are sexually attracted to each other, then you start to have unnecessary distractions, affecting all persons in close proximity. It's as stupid as having co-ed fighting units. The only reason it's worked in the past is that gay people can pass for straight if they want to. The trouble starts when they stop wanting to pass for straight. The next step is to pair up. If complete openness for gays works in some European mall cop military, that's great, but American soldiers get rough and dirty, often. And they have codes of conduct.
Jul '10
Re: Defense Department Review of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" Repeal Issues
I'm sure some opponents of repeal, somewhere, sound like that. That hardly seems like a fair interpretation of say, Peter's post, or McCain's comments, or much I've read on Ricochet. Maybe I've missed all the drastic doomsday scenarios.
Jul '10
Re: Defense Department Review of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" Repeal Issues
Palaeologus
I'm sure some opponents of repeal, somewhere, sound like that. That hardly seems like a fair interpretation of say, Peter's post, or McCain's comments, or much I've read on Ricochet. Maybe I've missed all the drastic doomsday scenarios. · Dec 2 at 9:25pm
I never offered that observation as an interpretation of anything Peter ever wrote. As for McCain's comments, I couldn't care less.
Jun '10
Re: Defense Department Review of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" Repeal Issues
When something is NOT broken, maybe even reached a peak of excellence,THAT'S precisely when liberals want to start "fixing" it.
Oct '10
Re: Defense Department Review of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" Repeal Issues
Michael Labeit: ....continued
So while I haven't witnessed any evidence that suggests desegregation caused a mass exodus of servicemen in the 1950s . . . "
It was a conscript military then . . . walking off the job or not honoring your draft notice were serious legal matters. We only became all-volunteer after Vietnam. If it happens, probably the only "mass exodus" will be a slow fizzle of decreased recruitments and fewer re-enlistments when the initial tour of duty is up. Then again, a bad economy helps recruitment and retention. So Obama has it covered.
Jul '10
Re: Defense Department Review of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" Repeal Issues
Well, guess what? The courts are going to "fix" it if we don't. Which would you rather have? A legislative acknowledgment of equality or repeal by judicial fiat? The former may have its bumps along the way. The latter is a prescription for lasting defiance, resentment and discord.
May '10
Re: Defense Department Review of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" Repeal Issues
I gather then you aren't too familiar with the armed forces of Europe, particularly those serving combat roles on active duty.
Jun '10
Re: Defense Department Review of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" Repeal Issues
HVTs
Michael Labeit: ....continued
....Then again, a bad economy helps recruitment and retention. So Obama has it covered. · Dec 2 at 9:37pm
Good point. I feel so much better now.
Jul '10
Re: Defense Department Review of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" Repeal Issues
Michael Labeit
I gather then you aren't too familiar with the armed forces of Europe, particularly those serving combat roles on active duty. · Dec 2 at 9:43pm
Yeah, that was really disrespectful, particularly of the Brits, who have served and sacrificed magnificently in Iraq and Afghanistan.