Deeply Unrealistic?
Claire Berlinski, Ed. ·
Jan 28, 2011 at 3:48am
And it's realistic to imagine we can be silent about this and expect a happy outcome?
I am not talking moral versus immoral now: I am talking realistic.
The graph comes from the Guardian's live updates.
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Re: Deeply Unrealistic?
Claire, here's Haaretz on the Internet shutdown. "The Internet blackout in Egypt shows that a country with strong control over its Internet providers apparently can force all of them to pull their plugs at once, something that Cowie [the chief tech officer and a founder of Renesys, an American network security firm] called 'almost entirely unprecedented in Internet history.'" ... "Computer experts say what sets Egypt's action apart is that the entire country was disconnected in an apparently coordinated effort, and that all manner of devices are affected, from mobile phones to laptops.....'There's no way around this with a proxy,' Cowie said. 'There is literally no route. It's as if the entire country disappeared.'"
Re: Deeply Unrealistic?
Yikes.
Aug '10
Re: Deeply Unrealistic?
You want to let our Fed have the same power ? I'm sure they can concoct some justification and then overengineer the shutoff. Maybe a little paranoid, but what is an " off" switch anyway ?
Sep '10
Re: Deeply Unrealistic?
Egypt has been an autocratic nation for 30 years. Their actions are consistent, the bigger the threat, the more drastic the action they are willing to take. If people are shocked, they should not be.
May '10
Re: Deeply Unrealistic?
That is a chilling graph.
May '10
Re: Deeply Unrealistic?
I agree. Police states have nasty ways to stand on their subjects.
As I type that, it dawns on me, *that* is the problem. Most people in the world are subjects, not citizens. It is hard for subjects to transform into citizens.
Now they have closed the doors, the real horrors must be going on.
Jul '10
Re: Deeply Unrealistic?
Look for Smart Diplomacy (TM) to kick in any minute now.
Jan '11
Re: Deeply Unrealistic?
Opposition is always a "you first" proposition; people are willing to join but not unless they're certain they have strength in numbers. The denial of communication is intended to mask the number from the opposition itself. But if the government shuts communication in the first place, it's a sign that they suspect the strength of opposition is enough to threaten them. They unintentionally fuel the result they were trying to suppress.
Consider. In our country, the Tea Party was a surprise. Americans who opposed the governing class discovered the vast numbers of others who opposed it also. That's what accelerated the "movement."
BTW ... in the age of the Stuxnet worm, is an independent, mobile, unblockable ISP far behind?
Edited on Jan 28, 2011 at 6:17amMay '10
Re: Deeply Unrealistic?
Yep, make no mistake, Obama and his minions want to control our Internet access.
Jul '10
Re: Deeply Unrealistic?
Claire, I honestly do not understand what you want the Egyptian government to do - or not to do - in response to the rioting. Obviously, the riots have to be suppressed. That's a given, regardless of the nature of the regime. We've done it ourselves.
But then what? Announce reforms? Form some sort of coalition? Step aside and let the Muslim Brotherhood take over? Let Iran's stooge Mohammed AlBaradei get a foothold?
What?
Yes, seeing rioting youths be brutalized or even killed in the streets is disturbing. But they're, um, rioting, you know?
And why does the United States have poke its nose into this?
May '10
Re: Deeply Unrealistic?
Our nose is in it to the tune of $1.3 Billion a year.
Also, Kenneth, do you think the rolling rural riot in 1775 should have been put down by England? I say, the Redcoats had it coming for seizing the arsenal in the first place.
May '10
Re: Deeply Unrealistic?
A Full Gorbachev would be nice: sign the papers, turn out the lights, lock the door on the way out.
Nov '10
Re: Deeply Unrealistic?
Kenneth: Claire, I honestly do not understand what you want the Egyptian government to do - or not to do - in response to the rioting. Obviously, the riots have to be suppressed. That's a given, regardless of the nature of the regime. We've done it ourselves.
But then what? * * *
Yes, seeing rioting youths be brutalized or even killed in the streets is disturbing. But they're, um, rioting, you know?
And why does the United States have poke its nose into this? · Jan 28 at 7:46am
I think that Kenneth is spot on in this. Riots are the antithesis of liberal (classically liberal) society and have to be suppressed. Nobody who ever has been on the periphery of one should doubt that. (Look only at the race riots in the Midwest in the 1920's or what went on when a young black woman tried to enroll in the University of Alabama in 1956 or in Watts in 1964.)
The sharp question is then, as Kenneth posited: What do we want Egypt to do and how to we influence them to do it?
John Bolton spoke with FoxNews this morning but I cannot find a link to post.
May '10
Re: Deeply Unrealistic?
Again, we celebrate the long, running riot taking pot shots at the Redcoats on their march back to Boston.
I do not think riots against an oppressive regime are a bad thing because they are riot.
Jul '10
Re: Deeply Unrealistic?
Bryan G. Stephens: Again, we celebrate the long, running riot taking pot shots at the Redcoats on their march back to Boston.
I do not think riots against an oppressive regime are a bad thing because they are riot. · Jan 28 at 10:23am
That doesn't answer my question. What would you have the regime do?
Oct '10
Re: Deeply Unrealistic?
I think riots as a form of civil disobedience, in this case especially, would be much more heartening if we knew where the rioters stood, what they wanted. If there was a single movement that had the backing of a large majority of rioters, then it might make sense to support it.
Maybe as Americans we're too accustomed to a political process that encourages peaceful participation to feel empathy for political violence.....I guess we're all now in support of 'second amemendment remedies', we may just differ on the particular symptoms that warrant such extreme medicine.
Jan '11
Re: Deeply Unrealistic?
I think the regime's options are down to running or hiding at this point.
As for our regime, for years we've been essentially paying Egypt to not attack Israel. Do you think it would be helpful if we announced that payments are stopped until the election of a legitimate government? (I really don't know. I'm asking those with more insight.)
May '10
Re: Deeply Unrealistic?
I agree with Kenneth. And these riots are not aimed at mere reform. They're effectively calling for a coup... for a change in political leadership and perhaps process as well. In that case, I can't imagine any government not responding with force.
And for us, as I said before, the current situation is more complicated than openly rooting for rebellions in Soviet states.
Nov '10
Re: Deeply Unrealistic?
In his interview on Fox this morning, John Bolton urged us to remember that the Egyptians have been ruled by their military since Nasser and the Revolt of the Colonels overturned King Farouk. That is for almost sixty years.
I don't think that the military is going to go quietly and, if Mubarak is no longer a compelling leader, that the officer corps is likely to throw up someone elsee who will be.
If I am right, then the key question is whether the field grade officers and the NCO's remain firm in their adherence to the rule of the military. A Pinochet transition, if one is possible in that part of the world, may be the best that we can hope for.
Nov '10
Re: Deeply Unrealistic?
As an aside, STRATFOR has just reported (28 Jan 11 / 21.00+ "Zulu") that the Army has clashed with Egyptian police forces and that "security forces" have fallen back from Tahrir Square, which is apparently a significant site in Cairo.
It is beginning to sound as though there is a schism in the power structure and makes me wonder whether one part or the other has been infiltrated by the Islamists. I remember that it was a suborned military squad that killed President Sadat at a review.