Day 1 of the French Burqa Ban
"France -- home to Europe's biggest Muslim population -- on Monday officially banned women from wearing full-face veils in public places.
Other European countries have drawn up bans on the burqa and the niqab but France is the first to risk stirring social tensions by putting one into practice.
The law comes into effect at an already fraught moment in relations between the state and France's Muslim minority, with President Nicolas Sarkozy accused of stigmatising Islam to win back votes from a resurgent far right.
French officials estimate that only around 2,000 women, from a total Muslim population estimated at between four and six million, wear the full-face veils that are traditional in parts of Arabia and South Asia."
We've had this debate before, but I will avail myself nevertheless of this opportunity to say that I think the French law is an ill-advised one, to put it very moderately. Time is a scarce resource; I think it would be better spent figuring out how to reduce the extraordinary rate of Muslim unemployment in France, rather than on developing and enforcing a law regulating apparel. If the French parliament wants to discourage Muslim misbehavior, then it would behoove them to reconsider those labour restrictions, e.g., minimum wage laws, firing restrictions, etc., which increase labour costs and deny unskilled Muslims their ability to engage in wage competition (historically, one of the few saving graces of poor people), which proceed of course to decrease the quantity of labour demanded, including Muslim labour and, therefore, ensure that joblessness within the Muslim community remains high.
No doubt, some of the Muslim misconduct in France and in Europe as well is the product of a theological mentality that stresses Koranic literalism and, concomitantly, a hostility towards non-Muslims and Muslims who hold contrary beliefs. But few causal links are as well documented as the one between poverty and crime. Surely it does not help that these people, already vulnerable to an undesirable interpretation of Islam, are equally vulnerable to economic deprivation. To my mind, the shortcomings of the burqa ban with regard to addressing either of these problems, as well as the unintended consequences it is bound to yield, are considerable.
An excellent Doha Debate moderated by the always entertaining Tim Sebastian is available here for viewing. I must say I was impressed with the side that argued against the motion.
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Feb '11
Re: Day 1 of the French Burqa Ban
If France wants to decrease the social tension, it should quit collecting taxes so that Muslims can live on the dole. Then they would quit coming. It really is that simple. Not a citizen, no dole. If those of another culture want to come to France, they should conform to the mores of French society. Those mores do not include wearing burkas, which are a political statement above all else. At least French politicians have the backbone to stand up for their own culture, which is more than can be said for American politicians.
May '10
Re: Day 1 of the French Burqa Ban
Is there any evidence for this claim? We have every reason to believe that the wearing of the burqa or the niqab has more to do with religion or culture than it has to do with politics. These women aren't veiling just so they can assert themselves in front of the French citizenry. I gather that most of the approximately 2,000 who veil themselves do so as an expression of their religiosity.
The mores of a culture should be tolerated only if they permit respect for liberty and property ownership. I don't think the customs of France should be taken as a given with an exemption from scrutiny. What if "French society" decided it was appropriate to prohibit professions of the Christian or Jewish faith? Would you show similar deference to the wisdom of French society and request that outsiders thinking of emigrating to France should simply get used to it?
Edited on Apr 11, 2011 at 6:31amRe: Day 1 of the French Burqa Ban
Michael Labeit
Is there any evidence for this claim? We have every reason to believe that the wearing of the burqa or the niqab has more to do with religion or culture than it has to do with politics. These women aren't veiling just so they can assert themselves in front of the French citizenry. I gather that most of the approximately 2,000 who veil themselves do so as an expression of their religiosity.
Well, since there's no separation of mosque and state in Islam, I'm not sure "religion or culture" should be positioned against "politics." We should be careful not to assume our Western (and in this case specifically Christian) concepts about separation of church and state are applicable to other cultures.
Feb '11
Re: Day 1 of the French Burqa Ban
Michael Labeit
The mores of a culture should be tolerated only if they permit respect for liberty and property ownership. I don't think the customs of France should be taken as a given with an exemption from scrutiny. What if "French society" decided it was appropriate to prohibit professions of the Christian or Jewish faith? Would you show similar deference to the wisdom of French society and request that outsiders thinking of emigrating to France should simply get used to it? · Apr 11 at 6:27am
Edited on Apr 11 at 06:31 am
Of course. If Saudi Arabia wants to do the things they do in their culture, I have no problem with that. Same with France. I should absolutely take it into consideration whether I like those mores before I migrate. I'd have no problem with France's and nothing but contempt for Saudi Arabia's.
May '10
Re: Day 1 of the French Burqa Ban
Mollie Hemingway, Ed.
Well, since there's no separation of mosque and state in Islam, I'm not sure "religion or culture" should be positioned against "politics." We should be careful not to assume our Western (and in this case specifically Christian) concepts about separation of church and state are applicable to other cultures.
What the many discussions of Islam provoked by Claire's posts have revealed is that Muslim adherence to the Koran and the Hadith is eclectic, to say the least. Some subscribe to Koranic literalism, others are analogous to lapsed Catholics and are vaguely religious. The notion that, to Muslims, religious beliefs have Sharia-type implications for politics is certainly not true by necessity. It is true of only some Muslims, and it hardly demonstrates by itself that Muslim immigration is undesirable. Muslims integration within the U.S. is largely a success and there are examples of predominantly Muslim nations with high standards of living where the threat of Islamic fascism is very low.
Edited on Apr 11, 2011 at 7:07amMay '10
Re: Day 1 of the French Burqa Ban
Furthermore, even if the approximately 2,000 women to whom the burqa ban applies believe in Sharia law, it doesn't follow that banning the act of veiling will hedge against this mentality. If anything, it will embolden them by suggesting that they are repressed religious minorities who perhaps need to resort to violence to fend off an overarching state.
Re: Day 1 of the French Burqa Ban
Michael Labeit
What the many discussions of Islam provoked by Claire's posts have revealed is that Muslim adherence to the Koran and the Hadith are eclectic, to say the least. Some subscribe to Koranic literalism, others are analogous to lapsed Catholics and are vaguely religious. The notion that, to Muslims, religious beliefs have sharia-type implications for politics is certainly not true by necessity. It is true of only some Muslims, and it hardly demonstrates by itself that Muslim immigration is undesirable. Muslims integration within the U.S. is largely a success and there are examples of predominantly Muslim nations with high standards of living where the threat of Islamic fascism is very low. · Apr 11 at 6:59am
Agreed on the general idea but I'm wondering to which nations you're referring.
Feb '11
Re: Day 1 of the French Burqa Ban
Michael Labeit
Is there any evidence for this claim? We have every reason to believe that the wearing of the burqa or the niqab has more to do with religion or culture than it has to do with politics. These women aren't veiling just so they can assert themselves in front of the French citizenry. I gather that most of the approximately 2,000 who veil themselves do so as an expression of their religiosity.
I suspect that some large fraction of that group veil themselves to avoid a face full of acid.
Mollie Hemingway, Ed.
...................... I'm wondering to which nations you're referring. · Apr 11 at 7:04am
Yes. Do tell! The only nation I can think of is Brunei. (Maybe)
May '10
Re: Day 1 of the French Burqa Ban
Hang On
Michael Labeit
The mores of a culture should be tolerated only if they permit respect for liberty and property ownership. I don't think the customs of France should be taken as a given with an exemption from scrutiny. What if "French society" decided it was appropriate to prohibit professions of the Christian or Jewish faith? Would you show similar deference to the wisdom of French society and request that outsiders thinking of emigrating to France should simply get used to it?
Of course. If Saudi Arabia wants to do the things they do in their culture, I have no problem with that. Same with France. I should absolutely take it into consideration whether I like those mores before I migrate. I'd have no problem with France's and nothing but contempt for Saudi Arabia's.
"Of course" as in you agree that "The mores of a culture should be tolerated only if they permit respect for liberty and property ownership"? If so, then how does one harmonize respect for liberty and property ownership with laws that prohibit the wearing of certain kinds of clothing?
May '10
Re: Day 1 of the French Burqa Ban
Orion
Mollie Hemingway, Ed.
...................... I'm wondering to which nations you're referring.
Yes. Do tell! The only nation I can think of is Brunei. (Maybe)
The United Arab Emirates, Qatar, and Bahrain. They all rank relatively well on both the 2011 Index of Economic Freedom (particularly Bahrain) and on the 2010 Human Development Index (this index has flaws, but ranking within "very high human development" category is an achievement nonetheless). Don't assume that I'll provide an insufficient or unsatisfactory answer. Brunei isn't examined on the first index but it is on the second and it similarly ranks within the very high category.
Edited on Apr 11, 2011 at 7:56amMay '10
Re: Day 1 of the French Burqa Ban
All 3 also rank relatively well on the 2010 Corruptions Perception Index. One may dispute these indices, but I believe the similar trend that they all share is more than just a coincidence.
Re: Day 1 of the French Burqa Ban
Michael Labeit,
Certainly these countries are more free than various other Muslim countries, although the State Department has just issued a warning about Bahrain. From the NYT last week;
And UAE has its own human rights problems, and the Qatar situation sounds abysmal, particularly for women.
Oct '10
Re: Day 1 of the French Burqa Ban
I don't know what the French rationale is, but this ban might only be ostensibly directed at the burqa'd 2000. Its real aim might be to send a discouraging message to Muslim fundamentalists thinking of immigrating, or even at moderate Muslims already there tempted by a more fundamentalist Islam.
Edited on Apr 11, 2011 at 8:11amNov '10
Re: Day 1 of the French Burqa Ban
I think banning the burqa is a great idea. It’s symbolic and symbolism is important, especially to Muslims. The burqa ban says who’s in charge and the French are not going to give up their culture for Islam. Islam is about power. Power is what it understands. Islam seeks to hold power over others but It always bends to greater power. It’s high time the French asserted some. Hasn’t Australia also banned the burqa? I don’t know for sure, but I think so.
Besides, I bet a lot of Muslim women will welcome a little freedom from Islamic men dictating how they dress. Surely Western women won’t quarrel with giving Muslim women the same freedoms they enjoy. Will they?
Jun '10
Re: Day 1 of the French Burqa Ban
From a western perspective the burqa is a symbol of enslavement and male domination. How many burqas cover up the scars, burns, bruises and contusions of the women who wear them? The fundamentalist Islamist might respond, "So...and your point is?" since they have a right under Sharia to treat women as chattel and brutalize them.
We now live in a world of terrorist acts where women or men can don a burqa and hide explosive vests. That reason alone, I would think gives the French government the authority and the right to institute and enforce such a ban because it is a matter of self-preservation and civic safety.
Mar '11
Re: Day 1 of the French Burqa Ban
I agree with those who suggest France needs to have a liberal economy. That is the only way to limit immigration, and encourage assimilation.
But the Burka ban makes sense to me, for a very specific reason: it is an issue of human rights.
Women (more than men) identfy themselves by their faces. Covering up the rest of the body can arguably be an issue of modesty. But covering a face is actually dehumanizing. It eliminates that which is unique and beautiful about a person, the expression of their personality.
I have no problem at all with a country saying that all citizens must be treated as human beings.
Dec '10
Re: Day 1 of the French Burqa Ban
The Burka ban is fine with me, although I don't think it will do much. The bigger problem is that France (and the rest of the West) has an unsustainable welfare state that requires the import of 3rd world immigrants on a massive scale. A lot of these immigrants have no intention of becoming French, or American, and are just there for the government check.
If France stops allowing Muslims to come to their country in large numbers then these problems will not be an issue.
I never understood why everyone assumes that they have a "right" to move to another country and not adapt to the social mores and cultural norms. The only right that is involved with that situation, is the host country's right to force immigrants to assimilate. Is this an unreasonable position?
Immigration should be only in the host country's interest. What interest does the West have in allowing large numbers of Muslims to settle in their countries?
This isn't to say that Muslims on the individual level can't assimilate, but on the whole it's not working out well, even in the US.
May '10
Re: Day 1 of the French Burqa Ban
No , no ban on the Burqa here in Oz. There was until recent times very few Burqa wearers in my home city of Melbourne, but recent immigration (both legal and illegal landing of boat on a reef which is Australian territory , with subsequent claims of refugee status) from Afghanistan, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Iran, and Parts of sub-Saharan Africa has seen it increased markedly in the past few years .
A number of conservative politicians, commentators and others have raised the ban, as part of the debate on migration to Oz. Alas this is closed down via PC cries of racist, bigot etc, from professional multicultural types receiving government largesse.
A Supreme court case in West Oz. resulted in a burka wearing women being forced to remove her face-covering, so that the jury could assess her honesty as a witness.
I find it difficult to reconcile libertarian views on freedom of expression/dress; with the burka and its frequent association of oppression of women.
May '10
Re: Day 1 of the French Burqa Ban
I find the argument from symbolism to be unpersuasive. There are myriad symbols that connote repression and wickedness that those endorsing the burqa ban would not think of similarly prohibiting. Moreover, I don't understand the inference. Burqa are a symbol of oppression, therefore what? Will banning burqas contribute to the end of such oppression? There are already reports (see my Doha link) stating that women experiencing similar such bans have had even more stringent constraints placed upon their behavior by overbearing husbands unwilling to allow their wives to leave the house without veiling.
May '10
Re: Day 1 of the French Burqa Ban
I had not known that support for the freedom to wear what one chooses would dissolve so precipitously in the wake of this new law.