Conservatives and 'The Establishment'
Diane Ellis, Ed. ·
Sep 17, 2010 at 8:49am
There has been a pronounced tone of disdain for "establishment Republicans" in Ricochet conversations lately. But as distasteful as conservatives might find the establishment, Ramesh Ponneru argues on The Corner, conservatism still needs the establishment.
The truth is that conservatism needs a political party to house it; parties need establishments; and establishments have characteristic vices. Conservatism should want an intelligent and conservative party establishment, not disestablishment.
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May '10
Re: Conservatives and 'The Establishment'
etoiledunord
The term "elitist" gets thrown around pretty casually these days. For example, I don't think Karl Rove is an elitist. · Sep 17 at 11:13am
I don't disagree that the term is being widely thrown around. I don't know Karl Rove personally, so I don't know whether or not he's an elitist, but I think it's save to say that he is a political insider. That being said, my perception is that the reaction wasn't over Karl Rove simply having an opinion, but over political insiders taking the party in a direction that the ordinary voters were inhospitable to and the sense that they were being spit on when they didn't fall in line. Is this an entirely unfair position?
These comments on the appropriate level of response are starting to sound like something out of a university freshmen orientation seminar. Are we to simply pat Karl Rove (or others) on the back simply for having an opinion, whether we agree with it or not?
Re: Conservatives and 'The Establishment'
Diane Ellis, Ed.
Kenneth
Pomoconservatives? · Sep 17 at 9:30am
My precise reaction the first time I'd heard of them. The first "pomocon" I'd ever met was James Poulos (who founded the Postmodern Conservative blog). And I met one member (Andy Hartzell) at the Rico Soiree who self identified as a pomocon as well. As for what they believe, you'll have to ask one of them. · Sep 17 at 9:35am
Read Postmodernism Rightly Understood -- a book by the first Pomocon, Peter Lawler:
Not that we're anti-science or anti-business. Rightly understood, postmodern thought "begins with the news, perhaps both good and bad, about the intractable limits to any [...] project to make human existence predictable, tranquil, secure, and carefree." Pomocons link up these insights to a more or less typical set of conservative dispositions, commitments, and convictions about who we are as human beings.
Jul '10
Re: Conservatives and 'The Establishment'
Aaron Miller: So what are those shared goals? Let's figure it out, here and now. I'm tired of hearing rejections of "a litmus test" for "purity" without some recognition of what basic values the many variations of conservatives must unite to secure.
I believe that the GOP's core principle, the goal by which the majority of its constituents are enabled to pursue their disparate causes, is limited and local government. Do you agree?
If we can agree on a core principle, then we should reject any candidate who does not represent that principle. As Jim and others have pointed out, there is no benefit in being a member of any group that represents nothing. · Sep 17 at 12:00pm
Excellent point. We need a party platform that clearly defines and differentiates Republicans from Democrats, and limited and local government is the place to start. If you're going to have a litmus test, base it on a commonly agreed principle the party rallies around and not cults of personality, cliques, or a class-warfare Us vs the Elites mentality.
Jun '10
Re: Conservatives and 'The Establishment'
I'm just slightly to the right of Klingons myself.
Jun '10
Re: Conservatives and 'The Establishment'
Diane Ellis, Ed.
I considered myself a member of the Tea Party until I felt I was not welcomed anymore. My family and I went with our homemade signs to the San Jose Tea Party on April 15, 2009, on July 4, 2009, to a Santa Cruz Tea Party in late Aug '09, and again to a San Jose tea party in November, 2009. (Probably more tea parties than most Ricochet members have attended.) I was proud to attend those Tea Parties and to meet other folks who shared similar frustrations. I'm sad to say as the movement progressed, however, I felt that it morphed into something I no longer felt welcomed in. · Sep 17 at 11:06am
Diane: There is absolutely a post here: What I Saw at the Tea Party. commenters should be encouraged to begin with "I attended Tea Parties(s) where and when " before they launch into their comment
Re: Conservatives and 'The Establishment'
Pilgrim
Diane: There is absolutely a post here: What I Saw at the Tea Party. commenters should be encouraged to begin with "I attended Tea Parties(s) where and when " before they launch into their comment · Sep 17 at 12:14pm
This is a great idea, Pilgrim! Will get this thread going at some point this afternoon.
Sep '10
Re: Conservatives and 'The Establishment'
Well of course conservatives need the establishment! Sheesh, do they really think we are that stupid? That isn't the point. God, these folks are out of touch....But when the establishment is a bit too, um, established, entrenched, isolated and arrogant, well then, time to make changes. And please, Ramesh, Dr Charles, Rove, stop the lectures.You really cant be very smart if you think primary voters want to come home and listen to how badly they screwed up. They know exactly what they are doing. Consider that as a possibility.
The disdainful tone started with these guys. They are downright insulting, and since they are actually in the game of politics, should understand how counterproductive insulting your audience/constituents/allies is. Makes me question their expertise...
May '10
Re: Conservatives and 'The Establishment'
James Poulos, Ed.
Rightly understood, postmodern thought "begins with the news, perhaps both good and bad, about the intractable limits to any [...] project to make human existence predictable, tranquil, secure, and carefree." Pomocons link up these insights to a more or less typical set of conservative dispositions, commitments, and convictions about who we are as human beings. · Sep 17 at 12:06pm
I'm not that familiar with the pomocon label, but that describes me pretty well (though I despise the term "postmodern" in any context). In my view, all political questions begin and end with basic human nature. The purpose of government is not to provide Utopia, but to help free us of constraints like war and crime which hinder pursuits of our individual callings.
Jun '10
Re: Conservatives and 'The Establishment'
Kofola
These comments on the appropriate level of response are starting to sound like something out of a university freshmen orientation seminar. Are we to simply pat Karl Rove (or others) on the back simply for having an opinion, whether we agree with it or not? · Sep 17 at 12:02pm
Not at all. But the battle zone seems to consist of an intersection of: 1) where our core principles align, and 2) the "attitude" exemplified by certain "cliques" (to borrow Whiskey Sam's term) within this tent. For example, for all I know, Rove and Murphy may share exactly my core principles, but their manner of personality - and my perception of their disdain for me the average voter - offends me. This is different from say, a Charlie Crist, who claimed a certain set of core principles, and then abandoned them.
I don't know what the "peace process" should be, or if it is really even needed. But if the average political insider truly respected the average voter in their shared constituency, and vice versa, some of this strife would be less ... dramatic I guess. But we are a long way from that.
Jul '10
Re: Conservatives and 'The Establishment'
Diane Ellis, Ed.
Frankly, I was disappointed when it stopped feeling like a grassroots movement and more like a Glenn Beck and Sarah Palin-led movement. It began to feel like you couldn't call yourself legitimate Tea Partier if you didn't subscribe to the Beck/Palin cult of personality. Expressing one's distrust or disagreement or anything short of complete approbation for either of these two gets you labeled as a "condescending elitist."
I'm with you, Diane.
Sarah Palin didn't start the Tea Party; Rick Santelli did. Glenn Beck, a consummate media guy, uses the Tea Party for his own glorification.
Yes, we live in a celebrity culture, so they can draw crowds. But so what? When the crowd goes home, what happens is the Left gets to denigrate the true grassroots as Palin or Beck zombies.
Even worse, Palin gets to glory in being the "Tea Party Kingmaker" in Republican primaries.
I'm sure they make some positive contribution, but their attempts to hi-jack the movement strike me as mostly self-promotion.
Edited on Sep 17, 2010 at 1:04pmMay '10
Re: Conservatives and 'The Establishment'
Kenneth: As it is, the GOP "establishment" is chosen from among the longest-serving members in Congress - the ones who have settled all-too-comfortably into the bi-partisan club.......
A Paul Ryan, not a John Boehner.
Don't confuse policy with process, or PR with substance. When you can drift into the swamp of litmus tests, ideological perfection, and Manichaean absolutism you have done nothing except lose elections and induce incoherence into the movement. Rove and Murphy have opinions- judgements based on data and experience. They are both real Republicans, not RINO, and want our side to win, to move the Titanic away from the iceberg.
Boehner has a tan and has 200 people to manage and hold together, Paul Ryan does not. Boehner is a manager, Ryan is a policy wonk. But Boehner has never taken an earmark, and his ACU lifetime score is better than Ryan's- yet people here are disdainful of Boehner and worship Ryan. That is emotion, not fact-supported thought. Both men are needed.
This is not a debate with a discrete L-R switch, it is a continuum. Some are ACU 60, others ACU 90. We need them all.
May '10
Re: Conservatives and 'The Establishment'
BTW, check them out:
http://www.conservative.org/ratings/ratingsarchive/2009/House%20Ratings.htm
Jul '10
Re: Conservatives and 'The Establishment'
Duane Oyen
Boehner has a tan and has 200 people to manage and hold together, Paul Ryan does not. Boehner is a manager, Ryan is a policy wonk. But Boehner has never taken an earmark, and his ACU lifetime score is better than Ryan's- yet people here are disdainful of Boehner and worship Ryan. That is emotion, not fact-supported thought. Both men are needed.
This is not a debate with a discrete L-R switch, it is a continuum. Some are ACU 60, others ACU 90. We need them all. · Sep 17 at 1:30pm
Yep. If we don't get them the ACU 2.7s run the show.
Jul '10
Re: Conservatives and 'The Establishment'
Duane Oyen
Boehner has a tan and has 200 people to manage and hold together, Paul Ryan does not. Boehner is a manager, Ryan is a policy wonk. But Boehner has never taken an earmark, and his ACU lifetime score is better than Ryan's- yet people here are disdainful of Boehner and worship Ryan. That is emotion, not fact-supported thought. Both men are needed.
This is not a debate with a discrete L-R switch, it is a continuum. Some are ACU 60, others ACU 90. We need them all. · Sep 17 at 1:30pm
Yeah. And Ryan has vision and a plan.
While Boehner can't even decide which taxes he wants to raise or whether it's a good idea to clear his throat and call for repeal of Obamacare.
Pardon me, but I kinda like visionaries.
May '10
Re: Conservatives and 'The Establishment'
Aaron Miller: It's one thing to accept that we must make alliances with people who disagree. It's another to avoid definition of what that alliance stands for.
The GOP is not one ideology. It is an alliance of ideologies formed to defend a common cause. It is right that compromises should occur within the GOP, but those compromises should not precede our shared goals.
So what are those shared goals? Let's figure it out, here and now. I'm tired of hearing rejections of "a litmus test" for "purity" without some recognition of what basic values the many variations of conservatives must unite to secure.
I believe that the GOP's core principle, the goal by which the majority of its constituents are enabled to pursue their disparate causes, is limited and local government. Do you agree? · Sep 17 at 12:00pm
I'm thinking it would be a mistake to go past this comment--it is deserving of a good debate. I'm a big believer in building coalitions and I'm no fan of purity tests at all, but there has to be some basic set of beliefs that guides us.
Jun '10
Re: Conservatives and 'The Establishment'
Kenneth, Just for the record, Glenn Beck said many times on his morning radio show, "the 8/28 rally is NOT a Tea Party. I don't want any signs. I don't want any politics. It's about restoring something much more important than a political ideology....," or something to that effect.
Jul '10
Re: Conservatives and 'The Establishment'
I wasn't talking about 8/28, which turned out to be a religious revival rally.
I love Glenn Beck.
But let's face it, he loves ratings and celebrity; and he's very adroitly used the Tea Party for his own benefit.
A little confession here: the first time I ever heard of Sarah Palin was when Beck praised her on his show. He'd met her in Alaska and what he said was pretty exciting stuff: anti-establishment reformer, firebrand, rock-solid conservative, 80% approval rating.
I was so jazzed I sent a sizable check the night she was added to the McCain ticket - and I never would have given McCain a nickle if not for the Palin pick.
Then I saw her in action.
Ouch.
Hey, Glenn! I want my money back!
May '10
Re: Conservatives and 'The Establishment'
Beck is an excitable guy. He's often right and generally has good motivations, I believe, but he definitely has to be taken with a grain of salt at all times.
But that level of emotion which blurs his vision at times and makes him jump to conclusions is also why he's so committed to his beliefs and good at communicating his views. As others have pointed out before, nobody but Beck could offer history lessons on centuries-old events and expect millions of people to tune in.
I'm saddened to hear you felt pushed out of the Tea Party movement, Diane. I think a lot of people confuse particular disagreements with total opposition. I don't doubt that some took your discomfort with figures like Beck (quite understandable) as being an attack on their principles. Many Americans feel isolated these days. It seems increasingly important to establish common ground before moving onto our objections.
Jul '10
Re: Conservatives and 'The Establishment'
This has been an interesting thread but I think it is a little off track. The current debate isn't about different kinds of hyphenated-conservatives or the establishment versus the tea-party. It is about what kind of leadership the voters want from a new Republican majority. The message is simply this, voters don't want the democrats but they also don't want the second-coming of the republican party circa 2006-2008.
If the republicans think they can go back to the days of earmarks for every district they are sadly mistaken. Republicans didn't cover themselves in glory when they controlled all of congress and the executive. If republicans don't take this historic opportunity to tackle serious reform then conservatives will go elsewhere. The fate of republicans isn't the same as the fate of the republic.
May '10
Re: Conservatives and 'The Establishment'
Kenneth
Sarah Palin didn't start the Tea Party; Rick Santelli did. Glenn Beck, a consummate media guy, uses the Tea Party for his own glorification.
Minor point. Rallies against the "Porkulus" bill happened a couple days before Santelli's rant -- three on the same day in different cities. Michelle Malkin was instrumental in spreading the word about the first one in WA. These things have been going on a while and, as has been mentioned, have taken on different aspects of out-of-control government growth.
I think if we want to boil the Tea Parties down to one issue, it'd have to be spending. I actually find it interesting that social issues, on which TPers are notably conservative, are simply not addressed.