Conservatives' Double Standard
Andrew Barret's fine post asking, "Is Herman Cain Pro-choice?" deserves more attention, since it points to a glaring double standard in the conservative community, especially here at Ricochet.
Again and again we hyper-parse every Romney utterance from the last 17 years, looking for any contradiction, confusion, or evidence of insincerity. But here Cain is utterly incoherent -- he's pro-life yet believes the choice of abortion should be left to families, not bureaucrats. Huh? (And if you accept Diane's defense in the comments that he was speaking only of cases of rape and incest, then check out this, which is even more spectacularly confused.)
Thought experiment: What if Romney were saying such things -- not 17 years ago, but today, like Cain -- would we give him a pass? Good grief -- of course we wouldn't. I dare say Prof. Rahe would be on him like white on rice -- as he should.
And, natch, Cain has "clarified" his remarks (I guess), just as he's had to do repeatedly in the campaign, and conservatives have moved on. Nothin' to see here. Let's get back to parsing Romney.
Careful, Mitt. You're held to a much higher level of scrutiny than your nearest competitor. A warning, but also a compliment.
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Aug '10
Re: Conservatives' Double Standard
Scott Reusser:
Careful, Mitt. One Cain-level gaffe and you're done. We all know it's true.
Yes, but why shouldn't this be true?
Romney and Cain are very different personalities, with one of Romney's defining assets (some would say one of his few assets) being his political polish -- his "smoothness". If Romney loses his smooth, then what's left of him?
Cain, on the other hand, appeals to people for reasons other than his smoothness as a politician. I don't see why it should be a surprise that Cain's gaffes aren't treated the same way Romney's are.
(PS: I'll vote for Romney over Obama any day. And I remain open to being convinced that my duty is to hold my nose and vote for Romney in the primary, too. But I can't take Romney seriously... Not that I ever have an easy time taking politicians seriously.)
Oct '10
Re: Conservatives' Double Standard
This is a really troubling area. You are correct, Herman Cain the citizen is definitely pro-life.
I have no idea where Herman Cain the political leader stands.
Is he a libertarian who has always considered the unborn of no importance to the overall scheme of life?
Is he a doctrinaire post Roe v. Wade Republican? Whatever the Supreme's say is the final answer?
Is he a conservative in the historical context, that Abortion is an issue for the states since the Constitution does not address issues like abortion?
Is he in the pro-life camp that believe that the Constitution is an extension of the Declaration of Independence which calls for the protection of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness?
Personally I am in that last camp and seriously pro-life.
I am also a strong Herman Cain supporter.
and I find this issue deeply troubling.
May '10
Re: Conservatives' Double Standard
Midget Faded Rattlesnake
Scott Reusser:
Careful, Mitt. One Cain-level gaffe and you're done. We all know it's true.
Yes, but why shouldn't this be true?
Romney and Cain are very different personalities, with one of Romney's defining assets (some would say one of his few assets) being his political polish -- his "smoothness". If Romney loses his smooth, then what's left of him?
Cain, on the other hand, appeals to people for reasons other than his smoothness as a politician. I don't see why it should be a surprise that Cain's gaffes aren't treated the same way Romney's are.
Funny, MFR -- while you were posting I changed that part you quoted to read a little differently.
As to your point: It isn't just a smoothness issue. Like Raycon above, I've no clue what Cain believes. There's a chance he's being not just inartful but dishonest -- trying to straddle both sides. I truly can't tell. That matters.
Mar '11
Re: Conservatives' Double Standard
Excellent post. Cain's position is that life begins at conception but that it's no business of government to protect that life. That's the classic "pro-choice" position. I really don't care whether the man is personally opposed to abortion or not. For me, the question is whether he believes that the government has a duty to protect the unborn. At least Romney has the sense to spread his inconsistent statements on abortion over several years. Cain puts them in the same paragraph.
May '11
Re: Conservatives' Double Standard
Complaining about Romney when the other choice is Obama is like complaining about the Taj Mahal when the other choice is a sewer -- especially when your complaint is that you don't like the wallpaper in the ballroom.
I would really like to see our side stop trying to biopsy the souls of our potential candidates. As Robert Heinlein said, an honest politician is one who stays bought. I don't care what Romney may have had to say in order to get elected in the People's Republic of Massachussetts, and I don't care what is in his heart of hearts. I think he is smart enough to stick to the campaign platform that gets him elected, and that is all I care about.
Oct '10
Re: Conservatives' Double Standard
This requires some serious follow-up. We are just a bunch of guys talking and opinionating.
Peter and others. Do you have any contacts within the Cain camp who would communicate the seriousness of this issue to the candidate?
This level of confusion about a deeply held conviction could kill his candidacy.
I speak as one who is strongly among Cain's supporters
May '10
Re: Conservatives' Double Standard
The only conceivable defense I could construct for Cain would be similar to Diane's -- that through all the give and take he was merely addressing cases of rape and incest. It's a stretch, I think, especially in that painful Stossel exchange, but here's the thing: Cain himself doesn't give that defense in his clarification. He says:
"I understood the thrust of the question to ask whether that I, as President, would simply "order" people to not seek an abortion. My answer was focused on the role of the President. ...[etc.]"
If you say so.
Mar '11
Re: Conservatives' Double Standard
It is not "utterly incoherent" to hold beliefs that should not be or become part of the forced fabric of the Federal blanket smothering us. I too am "pro-life" but had the Supreme Court not usurped a power not theirs to federalize a "privacy" right to abortion, some states would allow it and some would not. And we wouldn't still be "Roe, Roe, Roe-ing" this boat back and forth across the political (water)scape. Cain's position is coherent. And correct. And other candidates of whatever stripe who articulate similar positions should be held to the same standard of sincerity of their position. Much better to save us from poseurs than from politicians who sincerely hold beliefs that we know to be wrong. Wrong and wrong-headed are only linguistically not logically linked.
May '10
Re: Conservatives' Double Standard
That sweeping principle sounds okay. But it doesn't work in the case of abortion. To be pro-life is to believe that abortion is a moral crime at fundamental odds with the founding doctrine of our nation: that all men are created equal and endowed by their Creator with unalienable rights.
May '10
Re: Conservatives' Double Standard
So it's your position that Cain is strictly "states' rights" on abortion? Could be. I've no idea.
Now I see this. In the 2004 Georgia senate race, Cain felt abortion should be illegal even in cases of rape and incest.
So now based on various recent-history quotes from Cain, we could make legitimate claims that he falls just about anywhere on the legalize-abortion spectrum.
And yet it doesn't matter. Amazing.
Edited on Oct 21, 2011 at 8:48amMar '11
Re: Conservatives' Double Standard
To even approach consistency, Cain would have to tell us what he means when he says that life begins at conception. Such life must either be like a puppy dog's, subject to being taken at will by it's owner; or be like another human's and have the right not to be killed by anyone, including his or her temporary custodian. If his definition of life is the former, then he's correct and consistent that abortion is a matter of personal choice. If it's the latter, then he needs to explain why the government has no duty to prevent the killing of another human being.
May '10
Re: Conservatives' Double Standard
Basil Fawlty: To even approach consistency, Cain would have to tell us what he means when he says that life begins at conception. Such life must either be like a puppy dog's, subject to being taken at will by it's owner; or be like another human's and have the right not to be killed by anyone, including his or her temporary custodian. ....
Speaking of puppy dogs: Whether Cain likes it or not, this whole matter is going to be sorted out in the next debate when that terrier Santorum gets a hold of his leg. That puppy bites.
Oct '10
Re: Conservatives' Double Standard
Romney's problem is that you don't have to hyper-parse what he says, or even parse it, to see that he's not the real deal. You don't even have to go back 17 months, never mind 17 years, to find very problematic statements. Romney is embarrassed by us and wants to be part of the in crowd among the govt and media circles.
Oct '10
Re: Conservatives' Double Standard
Basil Fawlty articulates well the position of much of the pro-life community... that abortion IS a federal issue, like few others. If not, than the 13th Amendment has no place in the Constitution.
Dred Scott DID indeed settle the Constitutional issue of slavery if this be the case. That is largely why the Civil War was fought and the 13 Amendment passed. So, the issue is, at what point is the "person" to receive the protections for which governments among men, were founded?
Even Roe v. Wade made a lame reference to "viability" as the point, although the decision does not offer meaningful protections for an unborn at any point in the process. The "viability" issue is certainly settled science now, since even unborn life outside the womb can be "birthed" in a petrie dish.
This is a political battle. At what point does the sacred life of the individual become unprotected to assure the comfort, convenience and sometimes seriously emotional pain relief of those already living outside the womb.
Not an issue to be ignored.
May '10
Re: Conservatives' Double Standard
A Romney attack even in this post?
My point.
Mar '11
Re: Conservatives' Double Standard
As to the double standard for Romney vs. Cain:
On of the major appeals of Herman Cain is that, as a productive citizen, he lacks the accoutrements of typical politicians, one of those being a well-rehearsed sound bite to every question. As the cool kids say, his bumbling of many policy questions is "a feature, not a bug."
If we want candidates from outside of politics to have a serious chance, we have to give them a grace period to iron out their own kinks. Thus, I think it would be unfair to hold Cain to the same level of consistency as Romney right now, otherwise only allow career politicians would have a shot at the nomination.
However, if Cain hasn't figured out by the next debate how to clearly explain his views on abortion or whether his 9-9-9 plan raises taxes for low wage earners, he's toast.
Oct '10
Re: Conservatives' Double Standard
My point is that Romney's problem is his own making, not our unfairness. Do you really believe that Romney has been more consistent than Cain over any interval of time?
May '10
Re: Conservatives' Double Standard
The question is moot. My point is not that Romney should get a pass, only that Cain shouldn't but has.
Jul '11
Re: Conservatives' Double Standard
Scott Reusser
So now based on various recent-history quotes from Cain, we could make legitimate claims that he falls just about anywhere on the legalize-abortion spectrum.
And yet it doesn't matter. Amazing. · Oct 21 at 8:43am
Edited on Oct 21 at 08:48 am
It does matter. I echo Raycon; I've been very interested in Cain, and I find this development troubling. I'm sure many others will too. Cain needs to clarify that his policy towards abortion will be to restrict it, or he will lose the candidacy. If he comes out to be pro-choice then I'll probably be right back to Perry. Sorry, no love for Romney.
-E
Mar '11
Re: Conservatives' Double Standard
Scott Reusser
The question is moot. My point is not that Romney should get a pass, only that Cain shouldn't but has.
No politician without the last name Obama has ever gotten a pass in American politics.
Patience, you must have.