Collective Bargaining in the Public Sector
The events in Wisconsin and Indiana, combined with appallingly high and mostly-unfunded pension obligations for public employees (California’s tab runs to half a trillion dollars), have focused new attention on whether public employees should be able to engage in collective bargaining.
Ricochet’s Membership has been divided on the question. On one hand, some Members describe collective bargaining as an extension of the right to free association, and feel that it can be separated from things like egregious contracts and labor walkouts. Other Members decry not only collective bargaining’s disconnect from market realities but also the principle of unions and collective bargaining against the public they’re supposed to serve.
To hash this out, we’ve set up two pages: one for each side of the discussion. Each page will contain a series of semi-structured conversations, with the ultimate aim of creating a concise, compelling, and substantiated defense of a position. The Logo introduced this yesterday.
- The page arguing FOR public sector collective bargaining is here.
- The page arguing AGAINST public sector collective bargaining is here.
Some conversations that address the topic are below:
Answering a Friend's Challenge (Mar. 6, Dave Carter)
Guess Who Loves Collective Bargaining (Mar. 3, Diane Ellis)
Ohio's Collective Bargain (Mar. 2, Bill McGurn)
Mitch on Collective Bargaining (Feb. 25, Peter Robinson)
Gallup: 61% Oppose Limiting Collective Bargaining Rights for Public Unions (Feb. 22, Hot Air)
Wisconsin, now Indiana: Public Union Reform is the Next Political Prairie Fire (Feb. 22, Rob Long)
Unionized Public Employees = Nomenklatura (Feb. 18, Daniel Frank)
"Worker rights" (Feb. 18, tms)
In favor of unionization? (Feb. 17, historius)
And don't forget the first segment of this week's Law Talk podcast, which addresses the topic.
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Comments:
Aug '10
Re: Collective Bargaining in the Public Sector
I for one would like to hear a definition of "collective bargaining" spelled out, since at the margin it's not always clear what people include under it.
Re: Collective Bargaining in the Public Sector
We had a bit of an internal debate at Ricochet as to whether collective bargaining was a necessary and sufficient condition for, simply, a union. I argued that it was, but others felt that you could have a union, such as a guild, that doesn't actually engage in collective bargaining.
So, to answer your question: collective bargaining can be as simple as having one person represent other workers to negotiate things like wages and working conditions. It is one of the primary functions of a union.
In Wisconsin, Gov. Walker has proposed eliminating collective bargaining for benefits, not wages.
Nov '10
Re: Collective Bargaining in the Public Sector
Setting up a “for” and “against” page makes it seem like we’re arguing over who likes chocolate and who prefers strawberry. If you frame the issue in more precise terms you wouldn’t divide it into “for" and “against." The issue is whether collective bargaining by government workers amounts to collusion between government workers and politicians to fleece taxpayers and force taxpayers to fund the Democrat party? If the answer to that is yes, and it damn sure is, then it’s a moral issue and there’s no legitimate argument to be made for it.
Jun '10
Re: Collective Bargaining in the Public Sector
Rikipedian: So, to answer your question: collective bargaining can be as simple as having one person represent other workers to negotiate things like wages and working conditions. It is one of the primary functions of a union.
· Mar 8 at 9:48pm
Now if we could just separate collective bargaining from the Unions. I think of Unions, with a capital U, have become big businesses themselves, and it can be argued they are extortion rackets as well. Yet I can see a real need to for folks to have a mechanism, in both the public and private sectors, to be able to redress grievances with management. I'd have to say I'm for unions and against Unions, if that makes any kind of sense.
Re: Collective Bargaining in the Public Sector
That would be one argument. But don't you think it would useful to support that with specifics on taxpayer overspending and public union contributions to Democrats? We've had more than a few good, sober Ricochet Members say they supported collective bargaining in the public sector, and it's far from clear that Walker is being supported by most Wisconsinites.
In other words, it's one thing to be right; it's another to be persuasive about it.
And if for and against doesn't work, we can come up with new pages.
Re: Collective Bargaining in the Public Sector
Robert E. Lee
Rikipedian: So, to answer your question: collective bargaining can be as simple as having one person represent other workers to negotiate things like wages and working conditions. It is one of the primary functions of a union.
· Mar 8 at 9:48pm
Now if we could just separate collective bargaining from the Unions. I think of Unions, with a capital U, have become big businesses themselves, and it can be argued they are extortion rackets as well. Yet I can see a real need to for folks to have a mechanism, in both the public and private sectors, to be able to redress grievances with management. I'd have to say I'm for unions and against Unions, if that makes any kind of sense. · Mar 9 at 12:33am
That seems like an excellent, related question to consider. Sounds like a perfect combination of monopoly power, lavish staff salaries, and forced fealty by the actual workers.
Sep '10
Re: Collective Bargaining in the Public Sector
Rikipedian
But don't you think it would useful to support that with specifics on taxpayer overspending ...
The cost of collective bargaining to taxpayers across Wisconsin ..
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Sep '10
Re: Collective Bargaining in the Public Sector
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Sep '10
Re: Collective Bargaining in the Public Sector
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Sep '10
Re: Collective Bargaining in the Public Sector
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Sep '10
Re: Collective Bargaining in the Public Sector
Sep '10
Re: Collective Bargaining in the Public Sector
Rikipedian
We've had more than a few good, sober Ricochet Members say they supported collective bargaining in the public sector, and it's far from clear that Walker is being supported by most Wisconsinites.
I sincerely doubt that anyone in favor of "collective bargaining" for public sector unions fully understands the implications.
I could go on with other examples if anyone finds that necessary.
Jan '11
Re: Collective Bargaining in the Public Sector
How would a criminal enterprise expect to profit from associations with labor unions; or, is that too naive a question?
Organizational and strategic parameters aside, does, or should, union leader association with criminal enterprises characterize the basic union moral model? If not, what are the mitigating circumstances? If so, considering the myths and realities of labor unions, what if anything can or should be done to change that?
May '10
Re: Collective Bargaining in the Public Sector
I'm sorry -- I missed the announcement regarding the addition of Rikipedian to the staff. Or is this simply another persona. Can you please define the function of Rikipedian if not the identity?
And what happened to the interns? Have they completed their terms of service? Was there a send-off that I missed? I think we need a new podcast to deal with administrative matters. Perhaps a monthly staff podcast where they tell us what's going down and what's coming up...
Jun '10
Re: Collective Bargaining in the Public Sector
What Trace said
Re: Collective Bargaining in the Public Sector
Trace Urdan: I'm sorry -- I missed the announcement regarding the addition of Rikipedian to the staff. Or is this simply another persona. Can you please define the function of Rikipedian if not the identity?
And what happened to the interns? Have they completed their terms of service? Was there a send-off that I missed? I think we need a new podcast to deal with administrative matters. Perhaps a monthly staff podcast where they tell us what's going down and what's coming up... · Mar 9 at 8:08am
Rikipedia is a persona at this point, although the plan is to fill it with a dedicated person. The Logo is exclusively assigned in this manner to our publisher (on site, at least - on Facebook it's a shared persona), and Blue Yeti is exclusively assigned to our podcast producer.
I understand from Diane that our interns are taking final exams right now, so their rotations are coming to an end.
Edited on March 10, 2011 at 2:01amFeb '11
Re: Collective Bargaining in the Public Sector
Like Paul DeRocco said, I'd like to know the definition of the term "collective bargaining" that will be up for discussion. I really don't see how we can have a fruitful discussion about pros and cons without it. When you say "collective bargaining can be as simple as...." yada, yada, yada that doesn't really answer the question. Rather than discuss the general term, we might be better off debating the individual features that tend to get lumped under the collective bargaining label.
Re: Collective Bargaining in the Public Sector
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_bargaining
Feb '11
Re: Collective Bargaining in the Public Sector
Rikipedian, the Wikipedia entry you show says this:
"Collective bargaining is a process of negotiations between employers and the representatives of a unit of employees aimed at reaching agreements which regulate working conditions."
If this is where the definition begins and ends then let's let the discussion begin. I suspect, though, that this definition is not what people have in mind. Otherwise I don't really understand what the "ban" side is proposing, exactly. Unless you're talking about restricting free speech or freedom of assembly (that would be crazy and unconstitutional), then ultimately we're talking about how the government should react when workers strike in retaliation for the government refusing to negotiate with the workers' representative. The choices then become: buckle under and negotiate, or fire 'em all and let God sort it out. That's not really a ban on collective bargaining, it's more of a refusal to bargain collectively.