Classical Islam’s Toleration of Christians and Jews
In an attempt to contribute to our ongoing discussion of the Muslim Brotherhood and its relation to Sunni Islam, I want to return to two recent posts of Claire’s – one here, noting widespread protests by Egyptian Muslims against a suicide-bombing aimed at a Coptic congregation in Alexandria, and the other here, in which she quite rightly celebrates the willingness of Egyptian Muslims to make of themselves human shields by attending the Coptic Christmas Eve Mass.
Both developments are signs of hope, as Claire indicates. But they may or may not be signs of the moderation she has in mind. Muslims who favor the depoliticization of Islam, those who embrace political secularism and regard religious faith as a private matter, will, of course, find suicide-bombings of this sort objectionable.
But it is worth pointing out that one could condemn the bombing and insist on protecting the Copts while asserting that Egypt should be a Muslim state and that the law there should be based on holy law (shari’a). Indeed, Muslim holy law stipulates that “peoples of the book,” including Christians and Jews, be tolerated – on condition, of course, that they acquiesce in the cultural and political hegemony of Islam. One aspect of that acquiescence would, of course, be that they not proselytize (and not accept converts into their congregations).
I think it fair to say that the massacre in Alexandria was an egregious breach of the dictates of classical Islam. But, unless I am mistaken, so is embracing the secularization of the political realm, the treatment of religious faith as a private matter, and the toleration of proselytizing on the part of non-Muslims and of apostasy on the part of Muslims.
Am I wrong? And where does the Muslim Brotherhood stand? Would protecting the Copts be in keeping with the thinking of the Muslim Brotherhood?
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Jul '10
Re: Classical Islam’s Toleration of Christians and Jews
Dhimmitude is not tolerance, it's oppression.
Jul '10
Re: Classical Islam’s Toleration of Christians and Jews
Posting error
Edited on Jan 9, 2011 at 11:56amRe: Classical Islam’s Toleration of Christians and Jews
I partly agree with what you're saying, Paul. The Brotherhood did, in fact, condemn the bombing unequivocally. Qaradawi decried it as an act of evil. Those who protested might be protesting out of what you and I consider significant moderation (I am growing increasingly to loathe that word; we need a better one); or out of a form of moderation that's moderate enough to condemn attacks on Christians, but not the stoning of apostates--in other words, not much of a moderation at all. I think it's fair to say there is a wide spectrum of theological opinion in Egypt. I've got no polling data that would help us understand exactly what's going on. And don't forget, it doesn't always come down to theology. In Turkey, at least, the Islamist-secularist axis is only one of many fault lines.
Re: Classical Islam’s Toleration of Christians and Jews
Interesting about the Muslim Brotherhood. I agree with every word that you say.
May '10
Re: Classical Islam’s Toleration of Christians and Jews
Classical Islam...the good ole days.
May '10
Re: Classical Islam’s Toleration of Christians and Jews
Paul A. Rahe: Muslim holy law stipulates that “peoples of the book,” including Christians and Jews, be tolerated – on condition, of course, that they acquiesce in the cultural and political hegemony of Islam...I think it fair to say that the massacre in Alexandria was an egregious breach of the dictates of classical Islam.
I'm not sure. Egyptian Copts have been resisting Muslim hegemony, demanding equal treatment under the law. I think that under classical Islamic doctrine that qualifies as a breach of the conditions placed on dhimmis, and therefore as sufficient grounds for violent suppression.
(And of course since this "tolerance" is only to be offered to "people of the book", well, that's another reason to contemptuously reject it and stand in solidarity with Hindus and Buddhists and Bahais and so on.)
May '10
Re: Classical Islam’s Toleration of Christians and Jews
Michael Labeit: Classical Islam...the good ole days. · Jan 9 at 12:39pm
Cue the music from "All in the Family":
Boy, the way the Prophet slayed.
Got to pillage and invade.
Holy warriors had it made.
Those were the days.
And we knew who we were then.
Slaves were slaves and men were men.
Mister we all need to shout out "Allahu Akbar!" again.
Didn't brook the infidel.
Jews and Christians go to Hell.
Gee, it all was really swell.
Those were the days!
(Courtesy of Scaramoche, who reports on the winners of a "name Katie Kouric's Muslim Cosby Show" contest--Martyred With Children.)
Jul '10
Re: Classical Islam’s Toleration of Christians and Jews
Paul Stinchfield
I'm not sure. Egyptian Copts have been resisting Muslim hegemony, demanding equal treatment under the law. I think that under classical Islamic doctrine that qualifies as a breach of the conditions placed on dhimmis, and therefore as sufficient grounds for violent suppression.
Spot on.
Edited on Jan 9, 2011 at 1:14pmAug '10
Re: Classical Islam’s Toleration of Christians and Jews
Kenneth
Paul Stinchfield
I'm not sure. Egyptian Copts have been resisting Muslim hegemony, demanding equal treatment under the law. I think that under classical Islamic doctrine that qualifies as a breach of the conditions placed on dhimmis, and therefore as sufficient grounds for violent suppression.
Spot on. · Jan 9 at 1:13pm
Edited on Jan 09 at 01:14 pm
Put your jizya on this spot here, dhimmi. Vast construct of oppression must belie their desire to enslave, or their experience with same.
Paul Stinchfield- Martyred with Children !?!? Fantastic.
an old one
Two Palestinian mothers at the counter, talking about their kids:
"They blowup so soon..."
Edited on Jan 9, 2011 at 2:36pmJul '10
Re: Classical Islam’s Toleration of Christians and Jews
But did they really? For Islamists, words are often frisbees to be thrown around to keep people occupied and hopeful they'll catch one in the air. This is something, according to my observations, Westerners have a hard time relating to because words always or at least mostly mean something in the West. In a place like Turkey where you get both worlds, on the other hand, it may be a little more complicated as words may or may not mean something. I don't think any word coming out of the mouth of the Muslim Brotherhod (and their extensions) ever means anything in itself. This is one thing I doubt a Westerner can ever comprehend fully. Ergo the everlasting headaches in the Middle East. With words, all you get is pseudo-mental exercise that never translates into reality. And that is exactly what we have gotten in terms of real solutions in the region in decades. Because we refuse to accept the reality of meaningless words in the region.
Re: Classical Islam’s Toleration of Christians and Jews
Okan, I wish I could somehow draw more prominence to this comment, because it's important. Words also mean something in the East--I wouldn't draw attention to Qaradawi's words if I didn't think so--but there is enough truth to what you're saying to cause eternal confusion, and the only way to begin to grasp how differently words are used here is to live here for a long time. And I'm still caught short by it almost every day.