Civil Rights, Gay Rights, and a New Phase in the Culture War
In the May edition of First Things, R. R. Reno presents an editorial that strikes me as entirely correct--and thoroughly ominous. Excerpts:
Last summer, New York's mayor Michael Bloomberg gave a speech in advance of the close vote in the New York state legislature that decided that men have a right to marry men and women women. He described the fight for same-sex marriage as "the great civil-rights issue of our times...."
[But the]...belief that homosexual acts are immoral is not the same kind of claim as the belief that black people are inferior because they are black. When we deem homosexual acts immoral, we are not stigmatizing a class of persons; we're exercising our moral reason about the rightness and wrongness of actions. Unlike racism, principled opposition to homosexual rights has a firm basis. It's normal to judge behavior, including...sexual behavior. That's why describing homosexual acts as immoral is not at all like calling black men and women inferior.
To merge sexual liberation into the civil-rights movement dramatically raises the stakes in public debate. The Selma analogy [that is, comparing the gay rights movement with the civil rights marches from Selma to Montgomery, Alabama] makes traditional views of sexual morality as noxious as racism, and in so doing encourages progressives to adopt something like a total-war doctrine. The implication is that people who hold such views should have no voice in American society and that homosexuality should be aggressively affirmed in our public and private institutions, while dissent is punished.
Chai Feldblum [pictured here] is an Obama appointee to the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission....She sees the future this way: "Positive changes in the moral values of our country--such as moral values that honor the love between two people, regardless of their gender--will inherently and necessarily pose a challenge to those who believe, for religious or other reasons, that such love is sinful...." [W]hen asked her opinion on the conflict between homosexual rights and the moral commitments of religious institutions she insisted that "in almost all cases sexual liberty should win, because that's the only way that the dignity of gay people can be affirmed in any realistic manner." It's a frank statement that clarifies how few restraints progressives feel once they are convinced that they are fighting for "the great civil-rights issue of our times...."
I fear that we are entering into a new phase of the culture war...The Selma analogy gives [progressives]...a rationale for deploying the vast coercive power of the civil-rights apparatus to serve their moral vision of sexual liberation. It's a prospect that will give an even more literal meaning to the dictatorship of relativism.
- Comment (118)
- · Quote
- · UnfollowFollow (6)
Comments:
Dec '10
Re: Civil Rights, Gay Rights, and a New Phase in the Culture War
Charlotte:"Positive changes in the moral values of our country--such as moral values that honor the love between two people, regardless of their gender--will inherently and necessarily pose a challenge to those who believe, for religious or other reasons, that such love is sinful...." [W]hen asked her opinion on the conflict between homosexual rights and the moral commitments of religious institutions she insisted that "in almost all cases sexual liberty should win, because that's the only way that the dignity of gay people can be affirmed in any realistic manner."
This statement is justalarming.
And I don't even oppose gay marriage. · 1 hour ago
It's only surprising if you failed to recognize the underlying agenda all along. "You will assimilate." Leftist values, that is. It's about coercion.
Dec '10
Re: Civil Rights, Gay Rights, and a New Phase in the Culture War
Guruforhire
Valiuth
...
The best solution right now is for governments to not bother recognizing or giving privileges to any relationships. Then once this is settled culturally all will be well with the world again. · 9 minutes ago
As long as the society get to choose what they affirming, and in what context I agree. · 1 hour ago
Gentlemen, put aside these childish fantasies. It will never happen. Think of all the family law attorneys who would become unemployed!
Re: Civil Rights, Gay Rights, and a New Phase in the Culture War
Joseph Stanko
Tommy De Seno
Joseph Stanko
Tommy De Seno
There is similarity to the racial civil rights movement in that we didn't outlaw the color of anyone's skin, we outlawed their behavior because of it.
The civil rights movement culminated in laws that prohibited discrimination on the basis of skin color. If I own a business such as a lunch counter, I cannot refuse service to someone because I dislike their skin color.
The restriction was as to action... · 5 minutes ago
Aren't laws generally restrictions as to actions?
You can't very easily pass a law prohibiting racism itself, at least not without entering the dangerous realm of thought crimes. So instead you pass a law prohibiting racist behavior.
Chai Feldblum seems to believe we need similar laws prohibiting "homophobic" or "heternormative" behavior. · 14 hours ago
Hate crimes, which you appear to oppose (as do I) are prohibitions of actions taken based upon certain thoughts.
Why would you be comfortable with prohibitions of actions taken based upon desire?
Apr '11
Re: Civil Rights, Gay Rights, and a New Phase in the Culture War
Tommy De Seno
Hate crimes, which you appear to oppose (as do I) are prohibitions of actions taken based upon certain thoughts.
Why would you be comfortable with prohibitions of actions taken based upon desire? · 7 minutes ago
Are you trying to delegitimize mens rea in criminal law? It's not even an element that exists in the case you're talking about; no anti-sodomy law required the criminal to enjoy the sex, and no family law (outside immigration) that I'm aware of evaluates desire. There are all kinds of sexual desires that you approve of being banned, and even more kinds of non-sexual desire.
I get that you're just begging the question here, but the manner of begging it takes you a pretty long way from where you meant to be.
Jun '10
Re: Civil Rights, Gay Rights, and a New Phase in the Culture War
Tommy De Seno
Hate crimes, which you appear to oppose (as do I) are prohibitions of actions taken based upon certain thoughts.
Why would you be comfortable with prohibitions of actions taken based upon desire? · 30 minutes ago
Aren't all actions taken based upon some desire?
Yes, I oppose hate crime laws, because I think the law should focus on the objective action rather than the subjective desires of the actor. If someone shoots me, it's irrelevant to me whether it was a hatred for my skin color or a desire to steal my wallet that motiviated the shooter.
It is the action of shooting me that I deem immoral. If someone is filled with a sudden hatred of my skin color or greed for my possessions, and yet restrains himself and does not act upon these desires, I would praise him for his self-control. We all face temptations daily, the moral question is whether or not we choose to act upon them or resist them.
Re: Civil Rights, Gay Rights, and a New Phase in the Culture War
James Of England
Tommy De Seno
Hate crimes, which you appear to oppose (as do I) are prohibitions of actions taken based upon certain thoughts.
Why would you be comfortable with prohibitions of actions taken based upon desire? · 7 minutes ago
Are you trying to delegitimize mens rea in criminal law? It's not even an element that exists in the case you're talking about; no anti-sodomy law required the criminal to enjoy the sex...
It's the opposite - we criminalized sex he enjoyed.
Re: Civil Rights, Gay Rights, and a New Phase in the Culture War
Joseph Stanko
Tommy De Seno
Hate crimes, which you appear to oppose (as do I) are prohibitions of actions taken based upon certain thoughts.
Why would you be comfortable with prohibitions of actions taken based upon desire? · 30 minutes ago
Aren't all actions taken based upon some desire?
Yes, and the action prohibited is generally mala en se.
Not so for laws seeking to limit the actions of the homosexual.
Jun '10
Re: Civil Rights, Gay Rights, and a New Phase in the Culture War
Tommy De Seno
Joseph Stanko
Tommy De Seno
Hate crimes, which you appear to oppose (as do I) are prohibitions of actions taken based upon certain thoughts.
Why would you be comfortable with prohibitions of actions taken based upon desire? · 30 minutes ago
Aren't all actions taken based upon some desire?
Yes, and the action prohibited is generally mala en se.
Not so for laws seeking to limit the actions of the homosexual. · 9 minutes ago
But traditional morality holds that homosexual behavior is immoral. Immoral = wrong = evil in itself = mala en se.
Apr '11
Re: Civil Rights, Gay Rights, and a New Phase in the Culture War
Tommy De Seno
James Of England
Tommy De Seno
Hate crimes, which you appear to oppose (as do I) are prohibitions of actions taken based upon certain thoughts.
Why would you be comfortable with prohibitions of actions taken based upon desire? · 7 minutes ago
Are you trying to delegitimize mens rea in criminal law? It's not even an element that exists in the case you're talking about; no anti-sodomy law required the criminal to enjoy the sex...
It's the opposite - we criminalized sex he enjoyed. · 45 minutes ago
That's what I was denying. Enjoyment of the sex was never an element. As Clement said in Lawrence v. Texas, the laws prevented straights and gays alike from having gay sex. It's not the belief or orientation that was criminalized, just the act. Occasionally you hear defenses of traditional marriage that note the likely abuse of SSM by straights for immigration purposes and the like, but no marriage statute that I know of references sexuality one way or another.
I'm not suggesting that there isn't a de facto discrimination, both facially and by impact, but the "desire"/ "belief" angle simply doesn't make sense.
Apr '11
Re: Civil Rights, Gay Rights, and a New Phase in the Culture War
Joseph Stanko
But traditional morality holds that homosexual behavioris immoral. Immoral = wrong = evil in itself = mala en se. · 32 minutes ago
There are defenses of traditional marriage that use malum per se arguments and defenses that use malum prohibitum arguments. Since the law elsewhere criminalizes both kinds of offenses, generally with some kind of mens rea, I don't see how the nature of the societal harm impacts the legitimacy of the offense. Obviously, if you assume that there's no argument against SSM (which might be what Tommy was suggesting), then the argument for SSM becomes pretty powerful.
Jun '10
Re: Civil Rights, Gay Rights, and a New Phase in the Culture War
Lady Bertrum
No. I'm simply stating the tactic (or should that be strategy ?-not sure) of condeming the behavior not the person - hating the sin not the sinner - is a losing one because gays and most other Americans don't accept the premise that homosexuality is a behavior or a decision to act on certain impulses. They believe, much like Lady Gaga, that they were born this way, that sexual orientation is a genetic characteristic - the authentic self. · 7 hours ago
But I don't think it's a tactic (or a strategy) but rather an attempt to explain what we believe and why.
Are you proposing that we should stop trying to explain and defend our beliefs on this topic?
Feb '11
Re: Civil Rights, Gay Rights, and a New Phase in the Culture War
Tommy De Seno
Joseph Stanko
Tommy De Seno
Hate crimes, which you appear to oppose (as do I) are prohibitions of actions taken based upon certain thoughts.
Why would you be comfortable with prohibitions of actions taken based upon desire? · 30 minutes ago
Aren't all actions taken based upon some desire?
Yes, and the action prohibited is generally mala en se.
Not so for laws seeking to limit the actions of the homosexual. · 3 hours ago
Which laws seek to limit the actions of homosexuals? Certainly not any defense of marriage law.
Feb '11
Re: Civil Rights, Gay Rights, and a New Phase in the Culture War
Tommy De Seno
Joseph Stanko
Tommy De Seno
Joseph Stanko
Tommy De Seno
There is similarity to the racial civil rights movement in that we didn't outlaw the color of anyone's skin, we outlawed their behavior because of it.
The civil rights movement culminated in laws that prohibited discrimination on the basis of skin color. If I own a business such as a lunch counter, I cannot refuse service to someone because I dislike their skin color.
The restriction was as to action... · 5 minutes ago
Aren't laws generally restrictions as to actions?
You can't very easily pass a law prohibiting racism itself, at least not without entering the dangerous realm of thought crimes. So instead you pass a law prohibiting racist behavior.
Chai Feldblum seems to believe we need similar laws prohibiting "homophobic" or "heternormative" behavior. · 14 hours ago
Hate crimes, which you appear to oppose (as do I) are prohibitions of actions taken based upon certain thoughts.
Why would you be comfortable with prohibitions of actions taken based upon desire? · 4 hours ago
I disagree. Hate crimes make certain motives themselves criminal, separate from the action.
Apr '11
Re: Civil Rights, Gay Rights, and a New Phase in the Culture War
Ed G.
I disagree. Hate crimes make certain motives themselves criminal, separate from the action. · 1 hour ago
I don't think that this is true. They are aggravated forms of offense, but you do still need an offense; John Derbyshire's leaving black people to suffer rather than offering aid is not a hate crime, for instance.
Oct '10
Re: Civil Rights, Gay Rights, and a New Phase in the Culture War
Western Chauvinist
Spot on. SSM is tyranny of the minority. It isn't a demand for rights. It is, as Chai herself said, a demand for affirmation. The Left is never satisfied with tolerance when equality demands more state intrusiveness. · Apr 18 at 8:16am
It doesn't have to be. It's only if courts (or state legislatures in states like California) legalize it that it becomes so. It's a horrific possibility (animus to gay people would be cemented for all time, there is never an excuse for bypassing the democratic process) which is why I hope it doesn't happen that way.
Oct '10
Re: Civil Rights, Gay Rights, and a New Phase in the Culture War
James Of England
Ed G.
I disagree. Hate crimes make certain motives themselves criminal, separate from the action. · 1 hour ago
I don't think that this is true. They are aggravated forms of offense, but you do still need an offense; John Derbyshire's leaving black people to suffer rather than offering aid is not a hate crime, for instance. · 20 hours ago
It's not a secular crime, but I think a lot of us view it as a major violation of the Judeo-Christian value system our nation is built on. Of course, not everyone is religious or believes in those values, but still.
Feb '11
Re: Civil Rights, Gay Rights, and a New Phase in the Culture War
James Of England
Ed G.
I disagree. Hate crimes make certain motives themselves criminal, separate from the action. · 1 hour ago
I don't think that this is true. They are aggravated forms of offense, but you do still need an offense; John Derbyshire's leaving black people to suffer rather than offering aid is not a hate crime, for instance. · 20 hours ago
I see what you mean, but that's not what I was trying to get at. As long as an act qualifies as murder (as opposed to manslaughter, justifiable homicide, or some other legal distinction), why should one motive for that act be considered any more heinous and worthy of additional or harsher penalty than another motive? That is making the thought criminally punishable in addition to the act.
Jun '10
Re: Civil Rights, Gay Rights, and a New Phase in the Culture War
Mack The Mike
Casey Taylor
I don't recall any conversation with Gaby since she joined that would merit the assigning of statist impulses. She certainly hasn't given reason to do so in this thread. Why not give her the benefit of the doubt, or at least give her the opportunity to respond, before deciding her opinions for her? ·
There was quite a long thread on this general topic last year. In fact I think it's still the longest thread on Ricochet. If you have a few spare hours you could read the whole thing, but assuming you don't, here's the bit about B&Bs: http://ricochet.com/main-feed/Today-Is-My-Anniversary/(comment)/267529#comment-267529
Good Lord. That's a lot of comments. Good on you for digging through those.
I don't see what you're talking about, though. You expressed your concern that the US would follow the UK down the road of forced recognition, and Gaby answered you with a neutral response explaining UK law and public sentiment. Decidedly neutral.